Interesting to read these comments about needing more orange numbers to break away as I had the opposite experience last night.
This was a B race with 40 riders on RGV, which is dead flat and usually boring as a result. But we had a really dynamic race with many riders popping off the front by a few second for a bit, in 2s and 3s, the peloton chasing them down, and at about 3 miles in an actual forced split of the peloton into two (something I’ve only seen on climbs previously). But none of the people jumping off the front appeared to throw down doing orange numbers. It looked like usually it was usually 5.5-6.5 wkg range. It did feel harder to move up through a driving, strung out peloton (which I think is a good thing). It was one of the best flat races I’ve done and felt much more like the outdoor fast paced Wednesday Night Worlds style group ride than a normal flat Zwift race.
Well perhaps I didn’t use the correct term or distinction, sorry for that. There Zwift racers and more casual Zwift riders/users.
Some (probably a lot) of users enter races hoping for a recovery/easy race with maybe a sprint or two at the end and get disappointed. But that’s probably also our fault for some reasons. From the user interface to the categorization challenges, it’s up to us to improve on that also.
I think “orange numbers” is just David’s way of saying that you need to put down a lot of power and can’t just cruise your way to a breakaway. The power difference to the chasers/closers is the important bit, while the numbers themselves will of course vary by level/race situation.
In previous B races in my experience if you hit the front doing only 5.5 wkg on the flat you would not gap the peloton, it would just smoothly slot in behind you. My rule of thumb was always if I wanted a gap on the flat I needed to actually go orange (8wkg) or at least 7.5wkg with a pretty good slingshot to get the gap. Last night I definitely saw riders slingshotting at lower wkg and getting a 2 second gap without having to go as hard as I expected. And then the peloton had to actually up the pace to chase them rather than sit around at 3 wkg and swallow them up anyways.
The races I’m in usually have 20-40 people. My guess is all of this is group size and speed specific
I agree and would definitely think a doubling of the draft can be felt more at higher speed/higher draft than a doubling at lower speed/lower draft (think a downhill from the Radio Tower vs. uphill at the extreme ends of the spectrum).
This means the issue likely scales in degree of impact along with the draft.
Amusingly, since RGV was also raced in the December ZRacing I’ve got about as much of an apples-apples comparison as is possible for something so dynamic—also a B race in the USA east coast evening time slot. The difference in completion time between the two races was 3 seconds . I’m about 4kg lighter than in December and last night had to put out about 10 more watts raw (but 20 more watts normalized, so more dynamic racing) to achieve the same time. And my notes from last time (yep, I’m nerdy enough about Zwift racing to take notes on how each race went) show that the previous race was quite boring whereas last night was anything but.
It all depends on the speed. There is no “magic” power to establish a breakaway. The faster the group is going the harder it will be. Trying to espace when a group is moving already at 50km/h is probably not a good idea
Yeah I know, I’m just comparing typical flat B pack “feel”. It felt like attacks were making it out the front with lower numbers than I expected. But I’m not sure about how much of this is just placebo effect (I knew the race had switched to pd4 so I may have been attuned to things that I usually just wasn’t B paying attention to). On the other hand, I do have a lot of race experience (I’m about to hit 250 races) and I am not one of those who races for a workout or “recovery race” (whatever that is). I race to win, and I pay a lot of attention to my Zwift craft.
Most of us know that a 20 km race will not have much rest, but there should be ways to race smart and have some surplus to collect for making a break on a climb or going for a breakaway when no one expects it. Most races in Zwift are flattish and very short, so attempted breakaways will be railed in right away and we will end up in a sprint at the end anyways. My feeling is that now there is nothing like racing smart. You can stay calm in the blob where you will have the least auto-braking, you can stay at the back where you have to struggle with more auto-braking situations and you can be active at the front, taking turns or attempting to break away. There will always be someone willing to close the gap to the breakaway since we now know that they can stick.
It seems like the small slowdowns that came with PD4, make racing more taxing. We can’t afford to take these micro rests in between without being auto-braked. It is a bit sad that we have to adapt this unnatural style of riding. Almost like every race is an iTT. Zwift has always been like this, but now even more.
Zwifters have adapted to different PDs over the years, and I have too. I will be a better iTT rider and adapt this time too
In all the PP rides I’ve done since PD4 was enabled, I’ve only been auto-braked once or twice (in total) and they were very momentary and didn’t cause any noticeable loss of momentum. I’ve found it quite easy to sit-in, draft and relax when there’s not much going on in the blob, regardless of my position relative to the front.
My gut feeling (and I could be way off the mark here) is that riders who are experiencing frequent auto-braking may have honed their riding style with PD3 to surge-and-relax (spint-and-cruise) type riding. I don’t think that is well-suited to PD4.
What do you think is making us ride steady in the pack and not end up at the front? There are continuous auto-brakings that do not make red numbers. Smaller inside the pack and more aggressive towards the front.
Which would be interesting as Zwift said this wasnt an issue or problem - to then introduce a entire new pack dynamic to nullify it would suggest it was an issue…
If the braking is based on a percentage of 10-sec power or some other relative power metric, it can explain why these effects are less in an easy PP ride than in a race, and why lighter riders have fewer problems with them than heavier riders.
I don’t remember how the braking is implemented, so maybe someone remembers, or David can enlighten us.
Based on a couple of rides with the same frame/wheels, average power as follows:
Maria (Country to Coastal)
PD3: 152 watts
PD4: 158 watts
Coco (Volcano Circuit)
PD3: 180 watts
PD4: 180 watts
It did feel marginally harder riding with Maria, but - for me at least - that’s a good thing. Coco felt like Coco. In both cases, I felt like an increase in power from 60%-70% of FTP up to maybe 85-95% of FTP was all that was needed to adjust my position in the blob if I was further back than I wanted. An all-round top-notch experience.
I’m certainly not using a surge-and-relax kind of style. I do it to equalize speed when there is e.g. surge at the front as part of normal dynamic riding. It is more like a consequence of riding at the back, which should be one of the best places drafting wise.
To avoid confusion, I’ve only been auto-braked once or twice with flashing red power numbers. For me, group riding with PD4 has been almost identical to PD3 (so far).
I don’t think continuous auto-braking in a pack is a given (at least to the extent where you are being disadvantaged); maybe @DavidP could comment on this? If such a phenomenon does exist, I would equate that more to a feathering of the brakes, rather than slamming on the anchors.
In the early days of PD4 testing, I had real problems with riding towards the back of a group (felt like there was no draft) and also with trying to move up from near the back (felt like I was continually hitting a brick wall). These issues seem to have been solved prior to release.
Alright, just did the cobble crusher for my first PD4 race (which I won) and have a couple observations. Pack speeds are still too high because people were pedaling steady and there was lots of churn. And the only times I got flashed was when I got pushed to the outside, still in the middle of the pack, not intentionally easing.
. I’m about 4kg lighter than in December and last night had to put out about 10 more watts raw (but 20 more watts normalized, so more dynamic racing) to achieve the same time. And my notes from last time (yep, I’m nerdy enough about Zwift racing to take notes on how each race went) show that the previous race was quite boring whereas last night was anything but.
