I don’t ride real life bikes, but I suspect I know what happens if you sprint into the back of a group IRL.
Seems to me that being autobraked isn’t so bad in comparison.
I got braked far back from the group itself and the reduction in draft had nothing to do with pushing through the group. Not working as advertised.
Reminder that I was told to provide proof that I was being braked mid-pack because the algorithm couldn’t possibly brake you unless you were out in front.
I occasionally ride real life bikes and I know what happens if you launch into a full sprint while in the middle of the pack and I can assure you it’s nothing like what happens in Zwift, because Zwift is a video game and not trying to be a simulation of real life.
Hard to tell from the screenshot, but aren’t you the one in stripes out in front of your pack. The pack in front of you looks approx 2 bike lengths up the road?
That is not true. And if you read that somewhere it’s just a product of misinterpretation and/or some information being spread wrong.
Auto-braking can occur anywhere in the group, however (in theory) should be less frequent towards the middle of back of the group, because it requires you to reduce your power by more than 70% compared to your previous 10 second power when you are in high draft situations.
Doesn’t it also require going from high draft to low draft? I’m in the middle of the group which should not have sharp draft gradients except that it does here due to space in the pack ahead - that I should be able to roll into not get braked before I even get there. Note my speed, there was zero chance of my rolling through the front of the pack and inadvertently giving the pack “free speed.”
Braking should never happen mid-pack, especially in a roomy condition like I was in. Major flaw in the algorithm for that to happen.
Reminder that you said I needed to provide proof of mid pack braking because I was the only person complaining of it.
That’s another form of possible auto-braking. There are different rules. Transitions from medium to low draft usually occur near the front or the sides of the pack. Those require also less of a power drop (only 10%).
Note my speed, there was zero chance of my rolling through the front of the pack and inadvertently giving the pack “free speed.”
Like it was mentioned above, the system was designed also for these kind of situations. You wouldn’t directly contribute to the speed of the pack, but potentially get to the front easier. The new system was made to make progression inside the group a bit harder.
What’s the purpose of making it harder at the back?
Why did you say I was the only person complaining of being braked mid pack when it was an intentional design feature to brake people mid pack?
It’s not at the back, but generally in the whole pack. The purpose was to make progression inside the pack more difficult than before, to introduce the equivalent of navigating inside a real life pack, where you can’t just float through but have to fight a bit for position (I know it’s still not the same).
And also potentially decrease the speed of the pack.
Why did you say I was the only person complaining of being braked mid pack when it was an intentional design feature to brake people mid pack?
Currently, at least that I’m aware, you seem to be the only person complaining about how the system works 
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in practise, it isn’t. i’ve been autobraked (apparently) while sitting last wheel a couple of times, usually going into a tight corner, but it doesn’t actually make any practical difference. if i taped over the watt display on my monitor i wouldn’t notice it
You should’ve messaged “it’s supposed to brake you mid pack to make it harder” from the beginning if that was the intent.
Most people don’t notice or care, or have recognized that feedback won’t result in any changes. I also recognize that my feedback will have no change in outcome but still feel need to point out what appears to be broken. Even though frankly the effect is pretty minor and generally doesn’t have any real impact. Now apparently it’s intentional. And still don’t take Into account power being reduced as a result of terrain rolling down. Bad method to influence pack speeds but at least I know now it’s what you intended to do.
The real thing to address is reducing trainer resistance as a result of draft. Hopefully that’s up next after 4.1.
That’s the part where you’re wrong. I read all the feedback, and I already worked on a few extra safe guards to try and prevent situations where auto braking doesn’t feel right.
The focus now is on testing and refining the 4.1 version. More test events tomorrow: Pack Dynamics 4.1 - Test Events - #147
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Michael, I’m not fully up to speed on what is out there amongst all the Pack Dynamics threads but the one below David put out in January and I think it covers a couple of the areas you have recently been questioning ( apologies if I am way behind the latest info)
Main Points:
Hey racing community!
We are back for another round of tests for Pack Dynamics 4.
I would like to outline in broad terms what has changed since the last version and what to expect coming into the next round of test events.
- The concept remains the same - reducing the free forward motion inside the packs in order to reduce excessive speeds. Moving up in the pack should feel different (harder?).
- With this version there was a change in logic in terms of how auto-braking works. It’s now more focused in the transition from medium to low draft whenever the Zwifter reduces power and is overtaking someone. This doesn’t mean it will happen only in the front (or near the front) of a pack, but mostly.
- The previous system (auto-braking in high draft situations) is also still at work, but much less aggressive and mostly used for certain scenarios like when someone sprints at the back of a pack and then stops pedalling but still overtakes the whole pack or close to that (just a possible example).
If there was no red flash you wouldn’t even have noticed any chance.
I think most of people see the flash of red and realized that nothing notable happened and continue racing.
I’ve never been braked advancing through the pack, it’s only harder to move up because pack speeds are higher.
Suddenly not advancing with the momentum I worked for is something noticeable. This was actually a pretty hard brake. If nothing notable is happening then maybe it’s pointless to brake at all.
Why should this be less frequent towards the middle or back of the group? That’s surely high draft, meaning that the rider will definitely be braked whenever they ease off for any reason.
Because, generally speaking, reductions of more than 70% in power are not that frequent. Also given the conditions, auto-braking only occurs if your speed is higher than those in front of you. There could be situations where you are in high draft, reduce your power by more than 70% but your speed is not greater than those in front. So, lot’s of variables.
The thing I find a little difficult to get my head around with this want to regulate the pack churn and bring it closer to a road feel is that the speed in Zwift is just too high to replicate real road racing. When you race on the road or CX there is a constant change of speed, from braking in corners to being strung out due to road features or the terrain – That change in speed means you can actually move around and move forward fairly easily at times as you don’t need to exert huge effort to get in front of people. Zwift presumes that you are travelling at high speed, all of the time, so it is always difficult to move forward. The focus should be on how speed is applied or reduced rather than racing everywhere at 40kph. It seems a slightly backwards way of dealing with speed
I get there are large stretches of areas like Tempus fugit where pack speed & dynamic would need to be looked at, but take crit city for example, breaking for corners would significantly reduce the speed of those courses and change the entire race dynamic.
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