There are some safeguards against that, so you won’t be slowed in a sprint finish, don’t worry.
7 Likes
The experience you describe doesn’t make much sense according to the changes made. In theory in a pace partner (aka Robo pacer) ride, the power is usually steady and with draft being doubled, it should only feel easier and not harder.
You should try and keep your power steady when riding inside the group and see how it goes.
I think there’s something going on. Did an hour with Coco on Makuri 40 and the group felt a lot less stable. PD3 I could sit in, look at something else for a bit, and generally stay steady in the group. PD4 if I got distracted for 15 seconds I’d usually find myself way off the front or off the back despite pedaling relatively steadily. It was a large group, 100ish. This was pre-red-flash so I can’t say what might’ve been going on.
Average power was about right, not harder or easier to stay in just less stable. Edit: I just looked at old rides, C Cadence had me around 165-170w, PD3 Coco 170s-180s, this ride 192.
1 Like
What ride was that that you rode with the robo pacer, what Pacer was used on what route?
This part concerns me, as in most instances this is how this power up would be used and auto-braking would defeat the purpose of the power up. Perhaps this is something to adjust in the next iteration.
Did a couple Tour de Watopia rides today in the B group. As a female rider I really enjoyed it as it felt easier to stay with a big group, it just felt steadier. Keep up the good work.
2 Likes
Wanted to jump in here and say:
- Thanks for the feedback everyone. This is a hard thing to nail down as we’re going for a “feel” rather than something more direct like a numerical change to give the experience we’re looking for.
- No feedback is invalid, so please let us know what your experience was and how it was good, bad, or otherwise.
- We’re in here as Zwift staff answering your questions not to prove that we’re right, but to make sure that we fully understand when something isn’t going as you’d expect that we know what the core of the issue is. This is often presented as direct and short communication to make sure we’re getting to the same point that you are.
Thanks for the kind words and the continued discussion. This is exactly what made PD4 possible in the first place, so keep it up.
22 Likes
Suggestion: an indication of the magnitude of the braking. The red flash is so fast it doesn’t tell you much. Something like a red “-X kph” indicator. This could be something one could turn on or off (suggest making this a setting for the red watts flash too) and would make it easier to learn how to ride efficiently.
But that is just like a quick pull on the brake lever. It is something that happened for a brief moment you won’t even be able to see the -X kph indicator.
4 Likes
I did do that by accident, Constance and the leading rider got away a bit uphill so I had to smash the w/kg suddenly to get them back.
The folks behind surely enjoyed the 6-7w/kg interval anyway.
This could be like the old sticky draft that could be used more than once to drop people out of an Amelia Anquetil pace partner group near the bridge in the jungle.
I think this is spot on and my main concern with PD4 at the moment. As everyone now enjoys double the draft, it’s significantly more difficult than in PD3 to break away and actually snap the elastic going off the front, even doing much higher w/kg.
The -kph indicator could be persistent longer than the flash. Let’s not pretend an instant flash in the corner of the screen is good UI.
Could you provide a screen shot showing what numbers get flashing red treatment?
I have never seen it. Just would like to know what I should be looking for.
Thanks.
1 Like
Your watts in the upper left will flash red when you get braked. It will happen so quickly you may not notice it if you’re not looking.
I’m guilty of doing this in PD3 but instead of relying on autobrake to slow my opponent down, I spammed the ‘I’m toast’ button, slowed down, and then sprinted. Normally, I’d feel bad for doing it but that’s how I get people off of my highly coveted wheel in real life. (6’5, 220lb)
2 Likes
Did a longer steady state group ride today, for me PD4 felt fine. I was auto-braked a few times when I was cresting the front of the group, but in those cases I was not trying to break out of the pack, so I think that’s fine. I fell to the back of the pack a few times, and didn’t have too much trouble moving back up. I felt our pack speed was still pretty high, but I honestly don’t know how fast would be normal for this ride since the last few times I had chosen a lower w/kg category for it.
There were people in the ride contemplating whether PD4 would impact sprinting, or wondering why they were seeing red at low power numbers, or asking if it impacted lighter riders more etc. I think people that haven’t been following along in general don’t know what it’s trying to solve, so just notice the red and wonder what’s going on. I don’t tend to text much when I ride so I was mostly listening to the discussion.
1 Like
There is no such thing as a Double Draft…i can’t say more but there were weekly changes to PDv4 and most of the negative feedback is based on a single experience from weeks ago.
Anyway yes it is a bit easier to follow the riders wheel in PDv4. But this is now similar to IRL Watts Savings.
TTT tonight will be fun and most likely more enjoyable for everyone.
Regardless of the name you choose to use for the draft increase from PD3 to PD4, for me it appears to be significantly easier to hang on in the current version of PD4 that’s now live than in PD3 and thus harder to break away off the front.
In the previous PD4 thread, you noted “15% more Watts Saved” with “double draft”, and both you and the PD4 developer have noted earlier in the previous PD4 thread that “double draft” is indeed on by “default” in PD4. 15% seems quite significant to me and not just “a bit easier”, as you note here.
PD4 of course introduces/changes other pack mechanics as well, but they do not appear to help the formation of breakaways, only to help them stay away once they’re formed, which is now less likely to happen in the first place.
The ZwiftInsider article on PD4 mentions longer draft cones in PD4 than in PD3, which could play a part as well, as there’s then more time to react and get into the draft of an attacking rider.
I think PD4 would benefit from rolling this change back and shortening the draft cones (without changing the strength of the draft).
From my experience these last few days, it’s almost like there’s an invisible tractor-beam grabbing hold of you to keep you in your group, quite effortlessly getting you back up to the speed of the group, when you’re going backwards (even far back), and curbing your speed to match that of the group, when you’re moving forward.
It actually feels sort of collision’y to me now. Like PD4 has approximated collision mechanics through the draft mechanics. I can ease off and slot right in behind a rider quite purposefully, which I like.
This approximation of collisions through the draft mechanics, however, seems to fall short in situations, where there’s actually space to pass riders in front.
It then tends to cut momentum short regardless of the space to pass, if you’re easing off, instead of letting you pass through the available space.
This is quite counterintuitive and likely part of the reason many people find the experience weird and hard at the back, as you’re often soft-braked to the speed of the rider in front, if you’re in a strung out pack or small group with plenty of space to pass, in effect wasting power invested in momentum.
I would suggest that the threshold for applying the soft-brake in these instances should be increased, so it doesn’t happen quite so often here, while keeping the threshold the same in larger and tighter packs.
Other than those issues, I actually quite like PD4 so far. Feels like I have more control over positioning instead of just weirdly floating around. Breaking free of the approximated collisions/sticky draft/soft position lock to move forward is miles better than in PD2 as well, where it would often take a full-on sprint for me.
PD4 just still needs finetuning.
1 Like
It seems somehow inconceivable that the draft would be so strong to make breakaways almost impossible but at the same time it is still quite difficult to hang in the draft at the back of the pack. I don’t think this (at least the latter) is a PD4 thing because it was the same in PD3, but any chance it could simply be – a bug?
(I hadn’t tried out PD4 in quite a while, did an hour with Coco last night and couldn’t really even notice a difference.)
The difficulty at the back does not seem to be an issue with the draft, but rather with the soft-braking. It’s easy enough to hang on to the wheel of the rider in front of you, but PD4 tends to soft-brake you at the back as well, which makes it harder to move forward, if you’re used to relying on momentum from smaller surges of power, as much of the power invested in the speed increase is then in effect wasted.
You now have to do more constant, TT-like power to move up through the back of a strung out pack to avoid getting soft-braked to the speed of the rider in front of you.
1 Like