Pack Dynamics 4 Release [April 2023]

Definitely worth a try for “Racing Bubble 1.0” dynamics! :partying_face:

If you could roll it out as a toggle
for a club created event,
we could create our own races
and test to our hearts’ content.

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If I remember correctly there is a plan to introduce corner braking. This will certainly cause that a lot of the records will become obsolete anyway. Probably it would be a good opportunity to implement the potential changes to CdA at the same time.

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LoL :joy:

“Zwift pack speed is to high”
“We need a jungle bypass because it is to slow”

:joy::joy:

I don’t think it would take Zwift more than a day to slow all riding by 10% there is multiple factors that can be tweeted.

But that would not change the riding experience everything will just be a bit slower.

We should focus on the dynamics of the game not the speed.

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Do the new pack dynamics behave the same for all riders regardless of weight?

@DavidP is better to answer this, but I doubt he will comment on this.

From the PD4 parameters above, it seems like auto-braking is both triggered by a power reduction (reducedPowerPercentage=55%) and also the auto-braking is done by lowering the power (10 sec avg?) by 30% for high draft situations, like inside a pack, and by 90% when in low draft situations, like when you reach the front of the group.

Since heavier riders have to put down more power/watts than a lighter rider, and because of allometric scaling (Power output does not increase linearly with body weight, but rather follows a curve that plateaus at higher body weights), one could argue that PD4 favors lighter riders.

EDIT:
There also seems to be some linear CdA penalty going on. CdA is also not linear by height/weight. This will benefit riders with higher CdA values since CdA is not a linear function in Zwift (i hope).

Yes, it does behave the same regardless of the weight and regardless of some conspiracy theories out there.

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Don’t pay much attention to those parameters. Some of them are not even used anymore. They were left there from previous versions when test events were on-going.
And you interpret them the other way around. You need to lower your power by 70% in high draft situations and by 10% in low draft situations.

There also seems to be some linear CdA penalty going on

There is no CdA penalty going on. That name stayed when I tested when using CdA penalties inside the group while overtaking.

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Thanks for the clarifications. Much appreciated :+1:

If would be very helpful if you could do a write up of the current rules and parameters. That would make it easier for us to see cause and effect, and we would not have to guess and spread assumptions.

Given that info, I think the 70% should be even higher in high draft situations to not be auto-braked as often as we currently are when trying to position at the back and in the group.

6 posts were merged into an existing topic: Robo Pacer Draft Question

i don’t see why not. i mean, i’ve never been heavy, but i’m not having a bad time as a light guy.

Yeah this is not happening in any racing event. Any rider who understands how PD4 works WILL NOT relax in the pack. In PD3, people would relax knowing that there would be no breakaway attempts because it was futile. Now, it’s a real threat, so people try to maintain position up front, pushing up the speed.

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Not only because of the breakaway threat but also because there is less auto-braking going on there. Less “cascading auto-braking”.

hold my lucozade

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TIL Lucozade is British Gatorade :laughing:

Nobody cares about old records becoming obsolete due to changed dynamics. If someone does care s/he can get fitter and set a new record.

You can kill two birds with one stone here. Even out the unrealistic CdA penalty for tall riders by bringing up the drag of shorter riders more than taller ones. Packs slow down and the tall CdA penalty fixed in one simple step.

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Is it typically shorter riders at the front driving the speed of the pack?

No idea. I’m saying bring up everyone’s CdA, bring up short people’s CdA more.

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@DavidP thoughts of this blueprint for the future? See steps 1 through 4

Nobody? I care and am sure I am not the only one here!
Get fitter and set a new record is not possible for everyone (age 65 in my case).

Breakaways — I’ll also add that solo moves for short periods still are very flawed in the dynamics versus the chasing peloton.

If I’m doing 6.5 to 7W/kg sustained for sub 5 minutes, and the peloton lead rider(s) pull at around 6 or under and also weigh less than me, usually, they either maintain the gap or pull back fraction of seconds, depending on the terrain. Absolutely frustrates me if this happens to be the race winning move attempt. 1 minute power (and neuromuscular) still hails king crossing the finish line for rolling and flat courses, which is laughable.

Geraint Thomas and Jonas Vingegaard both won crit races in past year or two employing a mixed vo2max/anaerobic breakaway effort to hold off chasing peloton. Think in realm of sub 5 minutes