Hi Mike,
So the same process would not apply to me as soon as I overtook him and slow me down too?
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Yes it will, and it is exactly what I used to smooth my power while riding with CC. The problem is we don’t feel speed and aerodynamics changes when riding on Zwift - we only have the screen and some numbers there, so our reaction to those speed changes tends to be badly timed and with wrong magnitude. That is what causes our own surges.
I tend to agree with the original post - I’m 68, not particularly strong, and at 68kg find myself on the short end of the stick even on “sub 2” rides. However, I find the erratic speed of Dan Diesel a positive - my biggest complaint about Zwift and all other training platforms is the constancy of it. Unlike outdoor riding, there’s no intersections, etc. to act as natural breathers. At my age and fitness level, I need all I can get! Riding with Dan is ass backwards from real life as you actually dog it uphill and push it downhill. But it’s one of the only “group” rides where you get those kinds of breaks.
That said, something should be done about the jump from D to C, it’s too big - seems like an easy fix to just add a fifth category and shorten up the gaps between categories.
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Welcome! The “add more Pace Partners” in different categories is a frequent request. However, it is quite easy to create a ride feel between categories, by selecting the lower target power Pace Partner, but FIRST selecting a Time Trial frame before entering the game. You will be deprived of the draft, “in the wind” effectively, and forced to push about 20% more power to keep with the PP peloton. Other riders will still benefit from your draft.
You already have that option! You’ve had it all along! Want to ride at about… All About Pace Partners Bots in Zwift | Zwift Insider
[Readers note: the use of the term “you” or “your” is not to personalize this reply to the Original Poster, but rather to address specific issues and my feedback to the entire, wider community of Zwifters reading this content. This is not personal. I use the reply function merely to associate my feedback to the correct contextual framework.]
My thoughts:
I feel your pain. I am the poster of the power stochastics graph(s) discussing the variability index of my rides with the Pace Partner. We know that Zwift has been using these “Future Works” devices to test the PP, and I’m convinced, (with you), that there were times earlier this year and perhaps others when the PP “pace” was being tampered with, in order to solicit exactly the sort of feedback and data you, I and others are providing. However, in general, and recently, I believe you are mistaken. The mere fact that you’ve stopped posting updates was also a clue.
Zwift has now altered the PP selection screen to report only one target power.
In addition, contrary to your earlier post, the Future Works FAQ also now reports only one target power for each PP. Despite your belief, the PP is now not varying his Pace (in W/kg).
Zwift has altered the PP power descriptions (subsequent to your post perhaps?) to now specify only ONE power output for each 'bot.
https:// Pacer Groups FAQ
[remove the space after https://]
One of the threads here in this forum has likewise been updated with the single target power and the single W/kg of each PP. Zwift has been making PP updates frequently of late, coupled with changes to the AI controlling bunch dynamics, which has also affected the PP ride experience.
As long as the Pace Partners (PPs) are riding at a constant W/kg (and not a range, as you suggest), there will be no pacing overlap between 'bots, but there WILL be overlaps between attainable speeds. However, in a separate note in this very thread, I’ve provided a well-known method for synthesizing a ride-feel between the Category D & C PPs (or between any of the categories0 by using a Time Trial (TT) frame. It’s best to select this frame before entering the game, but probably after having warmed-up on a regular road bike - which is now much easier with the new update (one doesn’t have to log out and in again!) Also, another poster has wisely suggested that you modulate and attenuate the changes you make in your power when attempting to match speeds. Making very small power adjustments is crucial to lowering the power variability index. I recently rode over 100km with the CC category PP and achieved a TINY variability index of only 1.01, a weighted average power of 2.51W/kg and an average power of 2.49W/kg on the Tick-Tock course.
Another poster suggested, wisely, that you start practicing with a much lower gradient bias (the badly named “trainer difficulty” setting) on your particular equipment. Nominal speeds are irrelevant to your issue, you are primarily concerned with relative speed, especially between the PP and yourself. You’ve not indicated, surprisingly - given your activity here, whether you’ve tried any of these methods and your results.
Zwift had very nearly gotten this crucial issue of Pace Partner proximity right with the January update (update-1-0-61217). For the briefest moment in time (February), which unfortunately coincided with the very time frame, I believe, they were tampering with PP power variability, they had modified and fixed the on-screen, real-time drops-zone animation to not only show the PP in the correct position with respect to the rider (ahead or astern), but also to show distance and rate of change. I am convinced that your main problem, and that of the vast majority of other users (whether they realize it or not), is NOT the fact that the PP changes speeds on varying terrains (just as physics demands), or that they can’t SEE the PP (this is common with C.Cadence complaints), but that you are caught unaware of those speed and relative proximity changes.
BINGO. That’s the entire problem, in a nutshell. Users need to know the rate of closure/opening of one’s own position in relation to the PP (NOT the peloton) at all times.
When Mike observes:
Mike’s observations are bang-on! Unfortunately, going with the speed of the “group” does nothing to keep one with the speed of the PP. The PP is constantly changing its position within the group! Sometimes at the rear. Sometimes at the front or middle. One must be able to match the speed of the PP, not the PP peloton. To do this, we need that animation back, and it must remain on the screen at all times one is in the Drops Zone. And regardless of which view of the game one is using (first person, drone, rear-view etc.)
I certainly cannot visually resolve the tiny distance-astern tag on the constantly lateral-moving PP-tag at the bottom of the screen, let alone make determinations about how fast the PP is gaining on me! It makes me nauseous. Besides, that little ID tag is only visible in Forward View modes 1-3, is very often obstructed by other rider’s tags, and turn notifications etc. If we were to have returned to use, as was clearly already available and tested with the January update, the always-on proximity indicator (using the close-the-gap algorithm already demonstrated), you would have ample warning when the PP was closing rapidly on your position, or that you were too quickly opening a gap in front of him. You don’t need to SEE Dan, you just need to know what he’s doing, in relation to your position, and how fast/slow. That means showing us with an on-screen animation, at all times and in all views, whether the PP is ahead or astern, how far (in meters), and the rate of closure/opening. Zwift tried to change too many variables at once with the February update, got rid of the VERY USEFUL proximity animation, and made the drops zone variable. Now the animation does not show until its too late.
There. You’ve said it yourself. You want the PP to push more power on hill ascents, and fewer watts on descents. You consider this to be “normal” behavior. Unfortunately, it’s really not. It’s untrained behavior. And if you ride in this manner in a Zwift group ride or race, you’ll be likewise dropped. The PPs do NOT operate this way, and so the casual rider is caught unprepared for pedalling downhill, and keeping power steady uphill. The fact that you (and most of the other riders) probably are engaged in those behaviors is precisely why you are having these difficulties. If you substitute the word “speed” for “pace” in most of your assertions, you will have presented a more accurate picture of what’s happening in your ride experience. When I first started riding with the PP, I found it useful to use the “drone view” (keyboard 9). I would keep my position 5-10 meters ahead of the PP, just as Mike suggested (but remaining within the Drops Zone) and then from the overhead drone view, I could visualize in advance when the PP was gaining on me, as well as how fast. When the animation was improved in January 2021, I no longer needed to rely on that method, but now that the animation has been downgraded to the point of unusability, you might try that.
Your idea concerning an audio cue is an EXCELLENT one. The world famous United States’ Navy’s Blue Angels flight demonstration squadron trainers use audio cues to teach pilots about proximity and rate of change! Talk about staying tight in a peloton!
There IS already some audio feedback, concerning the speed of the peloton. Many users ride without sound, though, depriving themselves of this useful cue. However, it occurs to me that there could be a unique sound associated with the PP herself, (rather than the thundering masses), which would also indicate proximity and rate of closure. This effect would be somewhat akin to the doppler effect of a passing sound, changing pitch and frequency depending on the PP position and closure/opening rate. This would be outstanding! However, let’s stick with what’s already a known, demonstrated AVAILABLE function, rather than adding to the massive wish list!
Bottom line: SPEED and PACE are not the same thing. The PP speed is altered by all the same “physics” as IRL, especially including the erratic behavior of other riders in the PP peloton. You can confirm this for yourself by entering the game (without riding) into “just watch” mode, and observing the behavior of the PP and the peloton around him. I’ve studied the PPs in this way extensively whilst in preparation of this content. Of course Dan slows on hill ascents, and he doesn’t push any more power there (contrary to the riders around him) either. When cresting the hill, the PP peloton riders back off their power (unconsciously), just as the PP begins to overwhelm the gradient effects of gravity. Then, as the peloton goes into a descent (sometimes just after cresting), the PP continues to push 1.5W/kg, as the peloton is now free-wheeling or barely pedaling. Then the entire peloton, caught off-guard, rushes to catch-up, overtaking the PP (and affecting his behavior). Rinse. Repeat. The net result is the visual effect on-screen of what you describe. Worse still, the illogical peloton behavior has the effect of accentuating these effects (positive feedback mechanism in the scientific sense - but with consequences that you don’t like). I’m confident you’ll improve your skills.
Dear Zwift: bring back the always-on, PP proximity animation demonstrated with the January update. Everyone needs to know where the PP is (ahead or astern), how far (distance in meters), and rate of closure. Let this animation begin to flash when the user is at risk of being dropped or running off the front. When the animation disappears, the user has only a set number of seconds to fall back in line, or the drops multiplier must be reset to zero. The Pace Partners are worth your time and resources!
I used DD pace partner the other night and did 20 miles in the hour
Which I was surprised but pleased how much I had to push
2 days later doing the same ride
At times I’m way head of the group and looking at speeds on flat at 16 mph
Same location at times was 22 mph 2 nights ago
Actually managed to type this whilst comfortably riding and average is going to be about 17 mph
How can you explain that other than DD riding slower
Tried C partner just before but spat out the back on same flat section doing 26 mph
Gap to big and unless DD takes an energy gel won’t ride with him again
The trick is to watch the group and always try to stay in the middle and not at the back where riders tending to be slowing. Being at the back you can get hit with a sticky draft and then you lose the main group quickly.
The C group is always huge and so it goes faster.
It’s the same as for a big group in real life.