Numbers IMPROVED since promotion to A, relegated to B

Racing
1

Hopefully someone can explain this to me:

Got promoted to A at end of June.

My peak numbers then were:

1m: 457 / 5.82
3m: 374 / 4.79
5m: 346 / 4.44
12min: 332 / 4.26
20min: 340: 4.39

I gor promoted because I hit 4.3 for a couple of races.

4 months later my numbers are:

30s 11.84
1m: 520 / 6.7
3m: 435 / 5.48
5m 401 / 5.18
10m: 351 / 4.53
12m: 347 / 4.48
15m 344 / 4.44
20m 340 / 4.39

In this time I have also gone from ‘getting dropped in A races’ to ‘being competitive in A races’.

However, Zwift have just relegated me to B. How is this possible?

And why does my zFTP go DOWN when my zMaP goes up by 40 watts?

And why does my zMAP go DOWN if my 30s, 1m and 3m power improves significantly?

I don’t want to be a B rider, I found B races too easy. I hired a coach to get me in shape to contest A races, and all my numbers have improved, yet I get relegated. How?

My subscription is almost due for renewal and this issue is starting to make me wonder about alternatives - the way fitness and performance is tracked seems to be counter intuitive and demotivating for some of us.

It’s as if the system is forcing me to be a sandbagger!

The only explanation I can think of is that my improved power over shorter durations has meant that in races I have not produced such high 20m power, as it hasn’t been necessary. But if that is the case, why does the increase in zMAP of 66 watts not seem to count as ‘improvement’?

There are A riders who I consistently outperform in races, often finishing minutes ahead of them, but I am now a B and they stay A…

2

Two options come to mind.

1 - Dont worry too much about the zFTP and zMAP since they wont be important anymore from October 7th on. That day all Zwift races switch to the new ZRS system.

2 - If you want you can always uprace and just join the A pen if you think you belong there.

Others can probably explain a lot better than I could why you have gone back to B so I leave that for them to do.

3 Likes
3

Improving sub approx 5mins power will lower zFTP.

4

Essentially zFTP & zMAP are modelled numbers not actuals based on CP… the idea being when you improve short end power, this lowers your long range power and vice versa.

As Peter ^^ points out, race up at your own choosing and come next week it won’t be much of an issue with racing score becoming the de facto category mechanism for 90% of racing.

1 Like
5

Why? My 20 minute power has remained same.

My coach (ex World Tour rider) says when my 15s, 30s, 1m and 5m power improves it will also push up my FTP.

6

zFTP is essentially Critical Power by another name.

7

Zwift uses a critical power model to estimate your FTP. It requires a short-duration effort and a long-duration (~15 mins) one. It fits an exponential curve between the two points. If you improve your short-duration power but you don’t change your long-duration power, then the model thinks your FTP actually goes down.

8

Your coach might cry if they saw how it works in zwift but don’t get too hung up on the letters F, T, and P in “zFTP”. It’s not your FTP.

1 Like
9

Brilliant - your V02 max increases, and Zwift thinks your FTP goes down.

When I was promoted to A, Zwift had my estimated V02 max at 58.

It now has raised it to 64 and moved me back to B.

10

what is showing in your zwift profile for your 30 and 40min PBs?

11

30m - 325 / 4.19 (20th sept)
40m - 320 / 4.13 (11th sept)

Promoted to A end june, so these are also improved.

Basically, my short burst power and Vo2 max have improved significantly - because I worked with a coach to improve them - my longer power stayed same, but Zwift now thinks I am a B rider again.

12

Really it shouldn’t matter anyway. It makes no sense for any rating system to stop you riding in a race that’s supposedly above your ability does it? So if it won’t let you ride A then it’s broken. Someone with 100w ftp and a wooden leg should be able to ride A category if they want.

I mean, obvious IRL they don’t want my gran turning up to the TdF starting line and elbowing Cav out of the way but the system here should only stop sandbagging.

13

Yeah, as mentioned, Zwift is calculating a curve to determine zFTP. zFTP for A cat is >4.2 w/kg, and loosely Zwift says zFTP is what you can carry for 40 minutes plus. So, you should be able to go back to A with a 40m 330w effort.

14

Who is “they”? It sure as hell isn’t me! I’d love to see that :laughing:

2 Likes
15

What he said :backhand_index_pointing_up:

1 Like
16

Where is that the case? In every single race I’ve ever entered on Zwift it’s been possible to race in A cat if you wanted to. Even if you’re a D cat rider you can choose to race A.

Nothing is stopping OP from entering A cat.

Not to mention ZRS becomes the default cat system in a couple of days. But OPs ZRS is only 614. Time for OP to work on their 30 second power if they want to get that ZRS up into A cat territory.

17

It’s just how the power curve works unfortunately. If you put in higher short power the curve assumes you’ve sacrificed long term power for it and vice versa.

I’ve been downgraded after putting in a 3min power PB before as well just because it knocked my zMAP below the threshold. My zFTP fluctuates by as much as 20w depending on my shorter efforts and when they drop outside the 90 days. In reality though my FTP is the same whether I did my 5 min PB 89 days or 91 days ago. As other have said though CE is about to become irrelevant anyway.

18

i think cav would probably win that shoving match but thanks for the funny mental picture

19

Zwift is a “special” case that doesn’t relate much to everything else.

Just ride in A and eventually the mechanisms in Zwift will get it right.

20

Difficult to see what the problem is then but when he said he didn’t want to be a B racer because he found those races too easy that implied he thought he couldn’t enter A races.