There is definitely something wrong with the algorithm at the low end of the scale (I am 46 kg with very low power). Why in a large pack am I having to ride at 3.2+
wkg to try to keep up with a leader at 2.5 wkg - and still drifting out the back – but if I get to the front (or even in front of the fence) of the pack I can ride at about 2.7 wkg and still stay in front and even get time on the leader? I appreciate I have to put out more power to pace with higher power riders (who will most likely weigh more), but this makes NO SENSE.
3 Likes
Completely agree with you.
Definitely late to the party here but wanted to chime in after my experience with the Future Works anti-sandbagging races. A better ranking system, based on podium finishes and past results, is completely needed. This is coming from the perspective of a lighter, female rider.
If Zwift implements their anti-sandbagging algorithms that are currently being tested in Crit city races, they’ve effectively made it impossible any light rider (more often women) to win a race or even come close. Not that my life goal is to win a race, but it’s much more motivating to be jockeying for position in the top of a cat than riding alone in the bottom of the next one. Problem is, if I ride hard enough to stay in the lead pack, inevitably, I am kicked out because my w/kg is too high compared to the almost-always heavier riders surrounding me. In the past two Beta crit races I’ve done, I’ve seen all of the females, myself included, and the lone 12 year old boy get “green coned” in the large lead pack. Why should we get kicked out for riding above cat especially when those surrounding us are not? That is that part that makes zero sense to me. And it’s not like I’m pulling the pack along - I am riding in the cat that Zwift power says I should be in and generally am working my butt off to stay there.
I have no issue going up a cat when I ride in women-only races (i.e., people generally closer in weight to myself), but those are few and far between. For mixed gender races, there is no way I have the sheer power output to match the men in a higher cat.
Anyhow, my 2cents. Thanks for reading and happy riding all!
2 Likes
In real life the smaller lighter rider will have a smaller lighter bike…
You see big guys with HUGE bikes, which need stronger frames, and have MORE material…
I used to ride away from the heavy guys up the hills, but now they often ride away from me… NOT in the real world…
1 Like
Zwift is not the real world and there are many users without powermeter or cheating. I am not sure the big guys riding away are always so strong.
I am 188 cm and 89 kg, no chance to ride with lighter riders uphill. Much better downhill 
.
For me (NG eco powermeter outdoors, Tacx Neo indoor) is Zwift OK, my indoor experience is very similar to real life.
@Catherine_Lee, that’s exactly it. Sadly.
And I wish people could stop derailing serious discussions with anectodal evidence. That person so and so is heavy and slow (or likes to Sunday ride his races) has absolutely no bearing on the underlying problem, which isn’t about people but the logics of the race rules. And the race rules are completely absurd. Anyone with half a brain will realize that.
What p1sses me off to no end is that:
a) Zwift persists in claiming that racing is a margin phenomenon (and hence that they don’t have to spend any time on making racing fair) although it’s overly obvious from just a quick glance at the daily schedule that racing is hugely important for the Zwift subscriber base and thus for the Zwift brand.
b) Zwift is marketed heavily by elite racing. So you watch a commercial or some live event on TV or some stream. Some tour or race with or without RL pros. Hmm, exciting! And you go check the website and it tells you that Zwift is not just for them. It’s for you to partake in! So you give it a go. Only what you get is not what you see on TV. Because the elite in cat A and above enjoy fair race rules. You get something else, because you are plebs, the lower class subscriber base who stands for 90% of the bottom line in the financial report. But they never told you, that you don’t get what you saw. So you complain about it. Why wouldn’t you? But then you’re told it’s not going to change “anytime soon”, and that you’re just one of those few margin subscribers who “identify as a racer” who they don’t have to satisfy. Scammers…
It’s such an easy fix! All you need to do to get insta-fair racing is:
- Enforce categories
- Remove the performance ceiling in cat B-D
- Replace W/kg cats with results-based cats
(WTRL/ZRL does all of the above.)
It’s child’s play! The ONLY reason why this isn’t fixed already is Eric Min’s stubbornness, nothing else. What drives it is one of those unsolved mysteries, up there with Stonehenge, the pyramids and Atlantis. And now he’s hiding behind WTRL and let them do the job for him. Just like last time, with ZwiftPower. See how that went… (I actually believe much more in WTRL than in ZP, but they cannot shoulder a responsibility that belongs to Zwift, and it’s just one race per week anyway.)
First you have to pay them. Then you need to wipe their @rses for them. And they don’t even supply the tissue. But you’re hoping they will grow up some day. Do their own wiping. Only they don’t. And once you grow tired and give up they will just blow blue smoke on someone else. Bring your own tissue. But it’s not going to last forever. Why can’t they see that?
7 Likes
You couldn’t have stated this more perfectly!
Funny old thing. Came here after my very first hard effort rides on zwift. Im 70 kgs and was literally gobsmacked at the effort I was having to put out to remain in a C group ride. Afterwards I did a quick look at other riders efforts. Riders around 85kgs plus seemed to average around the 2.7w/kg where I was around 3.2kg.Out IRW I have never noticed such a discrepancy but what would I know Ive been a competitive cyclist for 40 years plus. Thanks so much for your post it opened my eyes!!
Thank you, @Nick_Harwood, I try. But you will notice yourself that a surprisingly large number of zwifters are like anti-vaxxers, completely resistant to facts and figures. And so you will hear again and again that heavies are disadvantaged and that racing in Zwift is fair as long as you sign up to Zwiftpower. None of it true of course.
If you want a deeper analysis of the problems with Zwift racing, then please refer to my blog. I have since given up on Zwift racing and focus entirely on WO’s now, currently doing the Build Me Up after a covid infection.
1 Like
That explains a lot, thanks for the link. 
1 Like
since when is 85kg big?
im 110kg and get passed by most people on hills !
The Light Riders’ Curse makes it nigh on impossible for most women to race in mixed races as we tend to be a significantly lower weight than the guys. You’re either dropped because you can’t keep up the higher w/kg or else you have to output a w/kg that’s too high for your cat, just to stay in the group. Given the small number of competitive women-only races that pretty much eliminates us from racing competitively.
2 Likes
It’s not about gender. Is just about power output. Justo choose a proper CAT based on fitnes level
W/Kg is hopeless as a metric as categorization in any form since produced watts do not scale linearly with weight, and a rider’s weight is not just muscles and fat in a fixed relation.
1 Like
Imagine a short flat race (the usual Zwift event) with a 100kg rider at 2.5W/kg and a 50kg rider at 2.5W/kg. Now ask yourself which one’s more likely to be a woman.
54 kg rider here, usually racing with the big pure power dudes, trying to race smart as possible, pretty sure that I’m not a woman
Speaking generally, a rider who would be upgraded except for the Watt floor is not a person who would have direct experience with this problem. Think about the typical case.
That race is from 2020 and most there aren’t active anymore lol, even your profile isn’t active.
So what. Someone found this post helpful in her particular situation, and it happened today
Actual lol at the race winner also being 54kg 
But do you know where the 50kg woman came in this race ?