Hello, bice-Bruder.
I don’t give a rat’s ass about “worthless internet points.” Some people take everything way too seriously.
“Sports don’t build character; they reveal it.”
I know it isn’t a major motivation for me - but at the same time, I am happy when I see that I’ve done well in a good field and get a good score.
We definitely get some people in Herd points races that take off from the front of the race after the race format is explained to them. And some do it repeatedly. I can only assume that at least some of them are doing this because finishing first, regardless of points awarded, maximizes ranking points.
I am almost certain there were some tags that excluded the score from rankings (Eric could then refresh as the race organizer) but I just discovered I can’t search the old forum posts anymore. I don’t know if Sticky remembers or is willing to share. If not, I could probably start messing with one of my races and see if I can find one through trial and error.
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Anything that makes me motivated to do races is good. ZP ranking points, points races, leagues, ZwiftRacing ranking, etc. I don’t win or podium very often (low B), and having something that gives me some motivation, except for just getting some exercise, is why I race on Zwift. To get some progress in some ways. Just see how popular badge hunting has become.
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i don’t, but if it’s a super sprint or a mass start flat race i’ll usually race A since there’s no reason not to. but i did have an asthma attack at the end of the 3rd race of the last tiny series so riding the 4th race at 180w and 160bpm to avoid having DQs on my profile were the longest and most useless 15 minutes i’ve ever spent on a bike
It can be a competition based objective that’s tailorable to the rider’s country, gender, age, category. Like top 10 ranked age group A category male in country. Sure I’ve gone after ranking points specifically for something like that. Helps make it more fun.
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TL;DR - For me, it’s all about keeping rankings fair and accurate, so sniping in the 4th race for example seems unfair to me and messes with the integrity of the ranking system. Some of us try to use it as an accurate metric of how we’re doing when we have no realistic hope of ever placing well in a race!
As a lighter rider (but just above the low weight/FTP category allowance) with low raw power, I got upgraded to B way before I was competitive in the Cs and now I’m at the bottom of the Bs getting shelled within a few miles every race, so I don’t have anything to race for except ranking points! I’ll never be able to hold on to the front bunch while W/kg is used as the category boundary and never be in contention for the final sprint. If I do improve my W/kg further I’ll get upgraded to the As before I can ever become competitive in the Bs. To have to race someone coming in on fresh legs only for the 4th and final stage would only demoralise me further and get me shelled sooner! It’s not only about the ranking points.
Category enforcement has helped a little now sandbaggers aren’t splitting the field so readily and I’ll only race those events. I can hang on a bit longer and I’ve started racing more again now, but I still can’t keep up with the raw power of the heavy riders at the upper limits of the category.
Having said that I don’t race to specifically gain ranking points, I’d never lie about my weight though and increase it to allow me to avoid upgrading to a category, nor would I snipe a race to bag some easy points, but I can see why those who care more about results and rankings might do so to inflate their egos. I use ranking points as one measurement of performance/progress, along with others like FTP, and a bit like FTP there is no point trying to artificially inflate it.
When Zwift eventually uses ranking points/results for the category boundaries I might have a chance, but for the moment results are meaningless as I’ll always place in the bottom half and it’s nice to have some sort of metric like ranking points to keep me motivated and see where I stack against the rest of the field.
Keeping this fair and accurate is vitally important as is not allowing riders to score cheap points to inflate their ranking and deflate those who have done all four mini races. By allowing the rankings to become distorted from someone’s true ability it would also cause problems should it ever be used for starting pen categorisation. So I completely agree that it should be all 4 races or a DQ.
I consider rank score as one of the key performance indicators for a race, yes. The way I look at it, there are things about a race entirely in my control (my W/KG and my power curve) and things largely outside of my control (like my final place in the race.) As a heavy, weak rider, I am perpetually in the “C-” zone, getting blown up in pretty much every race as soon as we hit a big hill. Given that I never finish with the pack (let alone stand a chance at a podium), it’s hard to tell whether coming in 14th place out of 25 is better or worse result than 34th out of 60.
By looking at my power, I can tell whether I was putting out my best effort, but this is clouded by the draft. Was I working that hard because I was having a great race, or was it a sign that I fell out of the draft and basically went solo the whole time? By combing that info with my rank score I can get a feel for how “tough” the field was and whether my middle of the pack place was something to feel good about or a failure.
That said, I wouldn’t go “snipe” a race series just to get some cheap rank increase. I want the rank to be as accurate as possible because it helps me understand performance. It’s not an ego thing.
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I don’t actively try to improve my rank and I don’t choose races based on it but I am happy when it goes down. It goes down when I am racing frequently because I have better chance on entering a good quality race and occasionally do well.
Re the DQ rules, it is very fair to me. Having listened to Eric on a podcast explaining the tiny race series it is obvious that they are aimed to be raced as a set. Regardless of the rank snipping (I had no idea it was a thing) I think people should respect the rules and not spoil it for other racers.
Cat limits are set by 20 min w/kg, but 20 min power doesn’t win anything in B. B is decided by one minute power and sprint. If there’s some climbing, then five minute power matters. How quickly can you recover from short surges and how well do you sprint? Focus on those (if you want to be competitive). Don’t worry about 20 minute w/kg.
The dynamics are different (for example) in D cat, where you’ll typically have a 100+ kilo riders cruising at the 2.5 cat limit for the entire race. You’re not gonna see people cruising at 400 watts in the B blob.
It is certainly true that weight to power is less important at the A/B boundary than B/C and C/D due to physiological limitations. But the W/kg is still a strong factor even in B cat and there are plenty of riders 10-20kg heavier than me, and currently, I’m only at about 3.5/230W average when all out so it’s a non-issue at the moment as there are several B riders cruising at 300-330W. The W/kg ceiling flaws are well documented in the forums.
My 4.1 is about 270W compared to 328W for an 80kg rider
But to illustrate the upgrade flaw, in a TT there is a 20 min limit of 4.2 average (95% of 20m) and a rider 10 kg heavier than me will average ~1 km/h faster for the same 4.2 W/kg. If I want to keep up and be competitive with that rider I have to ride at greater 4.2 - but now I’ve been upgraded to the As, I’m not allowed to go as fast as the heavier rider which is nonsense!
In a normal race drafting and racecraft are the only ways to make up that deficit, but the heavier rider can take advantage of those too so the principle still largely applies. Same applies for 1 and 5 min power, I’m at a physiological disadvantage there too in raw power terms, and I have to exceed their W/kg to keep up with them and that only pushes me into the higher category earlier as it still counts towards part of the 20 min average.
The best thing I can do is sit only in the draft (which I do well), supertuck whenever possible to recover, and stick to longer, hillier races where there isn’t much surging on the flats as everyone saves themselves for the sufferfest on the hills!
But bringing it back to topic, those who have done all 4 races will have a significantly depleted 20 min power by the last race, so 20 min power is important as it will allow those with fresh legs to push hard and further break those who now have a lower 20 min power. It’s the 20 min power that keeps you with the pack and fresher for the surges/sprints, but I have to go deeper to stay with the heavier riders and in a 4-race mini-series that compounds itself.
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Yes, TTs and extended climbing are two areas where W/KG take on primary importance. On the other hand, four race mini-series like the ZI tiny races or OTR Snap Cracle and Pop are more closely related to VO2 Max and repeatability.
If you look at the thread about the new ELO ranking system site, there has been some analysis done of all this, and 15 sec, 1 minute and 5 minute power are each more impactful than 20 minute power (for Zwift).
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The average weight of the top 15 (individual rankings) B cat racers is 75 kilos. If I’m not mistaken, 75 kilos was picked for pace partner weight because that was the average weight in Zwift. So the average weight of the best B racers is …average. Not heavy. Not light.
I podium often enough at 3.2 to 3.3 average as a middle-weight wheel sucker. My FTP sucks, but I can sprint. Heavies don’t bother me any more than lightweights. Except Atkinson. Atkinson is a menace (kidding).