Competitive & AI Tech Update: September/October 2022 Recap

@xflintx Thank you for some very useful, open and honest replies to this thread. I’m very encouraged. More transparent communications like this, please!


I agree with Stuart :wink:

Is there scope to implement dual recording requirements within races, with both power sources being connected through Zwift? It would make it much easier for race organisers, and would help to avoid unintentional DQs when someone forgets to push ‘start’.


This is entirely different in a fashion, but isn’t something that is in scope (although I absolutely see the benefits) - it would be a significant functionality change.

My one suggestion here is to put the API at the center of your plans. Make the API first and have Zwift developers use the same API that community developers access. Implement every feature on top of that API and don’t work around it. Think about the authorization, rate limiting, scope of access for different use cases, and privacy issues in the API from the beginning. Enable event organizers and developers of third-party visualization systems to do what they want to do via the API. Version the API so that significant changes don’t break software built on top of an existing API version, and communicate the capabilities and changes through developer documentation.


Although if a comprehensive API was provided then Zwift would not need to build anything as the presentation could be built by external contributors, with natural selection probably choosing the best. If you build it they will come.

1 Like

Agreed but I really don’t see that happening.

Seeing how the sandbaggers talked you guys at Zwift into upping MAP requirements now allows them race at sub threshold levels at the start for 8 minutes and staying under CP and sometimes ZP cat promotion is huge problem. The Race Makuri Series in C is littered with sandbaggers and some don’t even care. I don’t expect to win every race, but I feel for the lower end category riders in C where half the field is clipped off every race within 1km of the start. It’s almost like we back to the wild west days of before CE at least the anti-sandbagging crit city races were manageable even when I stepped up to race B in those. The original MAP values with cat enforcement were perfect and acceptable, I would have been happy to have a MAP promotion from CE to Cat B races. How can we be certain Zwift won’t screw up results based rankings? If Zwift employees can’t understand the math and physiology behind MAP and CP and bend to will of sandbaggers complaints to make what was an unnecessary adjust then how can we trust they can do it with results based rankings and even integrating ZP like data profiles into Zwift Apps or Websites? The current lack of data transparency between racers in Zwift Apps is abysmal and the transition of ZwiftPower to Zwift control was abysmal as well. What we need is trust and that means doing something correctly and correctly staying the course. The best thing Zwift could have done when CE came out was make an A+ Pens available to race series where A+ signups were high and the rest of the races with adjustable MAP and CP settings with suggested settings as default but allowed event organizers to change or alter the settings. Then looked for feedback from event organizers of what worked well.


This is what I was trying to say further up this thread. The largest complaints for however Zwift implement this will be from the sandbaggers having to race harder opposition. As you say they made enough noise on CE that Zwift caved and let them all back in. All CE does now is stop a C entering a D race (better than nothing) but does nothing to stop persistent sandbaggers.

Maybe it’s been parked in favour of working on this as a better solution to fix that :crossed_fingers:t3:


The only problem with ZwiftPower is that Zwift has only done a minimum amount of changes to it. Effectively the only big change was changing the login to integrate with Zwift.

My point is that iterating ZwiftPower to fix bugs, add functionality AND retain its data-centric approach would be my primary goal and would provide immediate and ongoing improvements. That was the model prior to Zwift taking it over. It was a model that worked reasonably well.

From a race organizer’s perspective, a closer integration of event administration would also be appreciated.

Trying to re-invent ZwiftPower in the current Zwift website or game with “user-friendly” graphic design principles we currently see in those would (IMHO) be a disaster and take longer.

Mind you I’m 68, so maybe I’ll age out before that happens anyway. I probably won’t be riding in another five years or so.


I do wonder what Zwift Power would look like now if zwift never took it over…

1 Like

Font might be a bit better and the cell justification might be uniform…


I think it comes down to trust. Zwift is acting as if Cat Enforcement is a huge success and it’s not as it’s helping sandbaggers stay sandbaggers and lets them justify they aren’t sandbaggers much like their transition of Zwiftpower to their control was how ZP couldn’t scale when Zwift took over was ZP’s design fault when more like it was Zwift’s own fault. Can we trust them to do it right? I would bet against it like I am betting against the bulls in the markets right now, reality and perception allows come back into alignment.

Is there any progress on TTT mode for other organisers and on that is it being worked on to give a team draft in isolation so we don’t run into the silly issues with passing other teams and riders having to slow/speed up to try avoid unfair draft?


I know some riders and teams in particular were very vocal that the fact that “the line” might be in a slightly different spot between ZP categories and CE was a disaster. The limits for CE seem to have crept up and up (without documentation) as people complain about being promoted and “I’m not as fast as the fastest in the next category”.

Honestly - you and I should both be classed as B’s based on race results, but I know I’m still classed as a C, and I haven’t checked your profile in a while.


I have never hit the CE limits on original MAP/VO2 values really close though. I would say I am right at the border just on that value which justifies me doing some B races of short duration, but CP and ZP 20Min aren’t close to B levels. I wouldn’t complain to being a B, but at current MAP and CP thresholds it really limits my B races to choosy ones outside of B ZRL. If they went back to the original MAP values I am all in for me being a CE B, but CE C Races are absolutely blowing me up. I am going to try today to see the difference on Turf n Surf in B, but I bet it’s similar as in I am competitive till it goes uphill just at which point do I get detached? If it’s near the same point with similar power as 3 races I have done then the only difference is the CE C front isn’t as strong as CE B front as groups which should be expected and that CE Cs is littered with B sandbaggers. I know that doesn’t make sense, but it’s how the energy system decay works in power outputs, because a stronger group I can draft better and ride efficiently, but 4 minutes uphill 30+ Minutes into a race compared to 28 minutes allows a little more reserve of power if power use was similar in that timeframe that getting dropped at same spot is possible. Don’t get me wrong, about 2 or 3 of the top 10 in C on Race Makuri Turf n Surf are legit Cs, but the rest aren’t and if the final climb had 8-10% segments in it then it would be telling.

Dan, I’m not talking about the power limits, I’m talking about effectiveness. I’m not going to enter a C race, because that would be stupid - I’m racing on a B1 and a B2 team in ZRL in different time zones.

If it was results - you win and place in a lot of races - high quality races.

Very few races have extended climbs, and the ones that do - I’m not going to do well in them until I get back in shape. The fact that I’m out of shape isn’t a reason to give me easier races that aren’t going to challenge me the same way.

MTA: Not talking down Dan for not making the same choice to ALWAYS race a higher than minimum category - he does sometimes, which is more than 95% of Zwift racers in similar situations. Just making a point about how the power-based categories don’t really work well for many riders.


:ride_on: :sunglasses:

If we had more of this thinking we would not even need CE. :sunglasses:

1 Like

The problem is I am not completely competent in C with CE and I just did the Race Makuri B and it all looks good for 20-25 minutes then it’s me beating against a ceiling. Very few select races in B for me to be competent in. Sure I can win races, but I can also blowup too with current CE settings.

This topic was automatically closed after 6 days. New replies are no longer allowed.