Category Enforcement Trial - Next Steps [February 2022]

MAP or vo2 or whatever they’re calling 5 min power is the only thing keeping me out of B, and i am an entire 0.7wkg above it. my cp is like 240-245 or something. i don’t know what the raw watt thresholds and floors are but i’m not seeing a lot of heavy guys with 5.4wkg 5 mins eligible for B CE races either

without knowing the raw watt numbers they are allowing for, if any, i think it’s a reasonable threshold if you are using 4.2wkg for 20 as a comparison point. it’s not physiologically uncommon for a rider to be able to do 1wkg more for 5 minutes than they can for 20 regardless of how heavy or light they are

Personally, I’m not interested in knowing the exact parameters of how Zwift build the CE power curve. Although, I do think ones CE ranking needs to be displayed clearly in their rider profile.

The more CE is understood, the more the baggers will game the edges.

I very much agree with James. If Zwift aren’t modeling down to 2-3mins for MAP/V02, they definitely need to update the model.

I’ve never done a full gas 5min effort on Zwift. Not once. If I did, I’d likely be forced up a grade. Generally, Zwift races don’t require this sort of effort. At least the races I’ve done.

Lowering the calculation time will further penalize anaerobic athletes like myself. I have no dog in the fight. I don’t really race on Zwift. I’ve just noticed that the 5min 5.4w/kg barrier does not really solve the intended issue. At least not for me.

If this was reduced to 3min, maybe even 2mins. It would be very hard to win races without really exposing your actual metrics.

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Many races on Zwift are decided in the 2 last minutes of the race. Then the pace is ramped up and end with a sprint. Neither the CP nor the 5-8min MAP will take that into calculation. The categories are basically only based on the CP, I assume.

(Disclaimer - I’m prepared to be wrong with this statement)

Xert has a metric that shows your expected peak power output during the ride - it’s based on the effort you have exerted in the run up to it.

As 2 min & below power at the end of a race is the defining factor for most races, not peak 2 min power. Is there a way to model that number and incorporate into CE?

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May be the area above the modeled CP curve between 0 and 2 min could be used?

never trusted it as it had my peak power at something ridiculous and about 150w more than i can do for 1s

That’s only because you don’t sprint - im fairly sure if you put some efforts into standing start efforts in a big gear you would hit that.

the max I’ve hit from standing starts inside and outside is less than 850w, I’ve had a spike where it hit 959w but never got anywhere near it since, so that is an erroneous number in my eyes, its not a case of i don’t sprint, its a case of i cant sprint ::

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It’s certainly possible, xert uses a 3rd metric over CP and W’ which is peak power - the difficult thing, as ever, is combining the metrics of that energy system with CP/W’ for categorisation, because a Cat D can have better sprint capacity than a cat A+.

I’m not sure what your numbers refer to but if your point is that you are under the 250W threshold on 20 min (CP) then the issue there is that there is no absolute watts floor on MAP which is a separate but also significant problem in the CE system. Are you saying you are under 4.2 for 20 mins but over 5.4 for 5? Link to ZP profile?

This seems completely wrong to me, such people are as common as unicorns. I just looked at over 30 top B cat riders in my team and not a single one broke 5.4 for 5 mins on their ZP data without also breaking 4.2 for 20 (they are B either due to being light, or not having 3 such performances in 90 days etc). The vast majority are well under 5.4, more like 0.5W/kg than 1.2 over their 20 min power. And that’s with the well-known problem of observed 20 min performance being a significant underestimate of true ability (less likely the case for 5 mins, as there are several hills of around that duration).

And James E, I’m happy calling it stupid because whoever dreamt it up obviously didn’t even do the most rudimentary check or they’d have seen this. I mean, you only have to literally look at how the algorithm classifies people. It’s one of the first checks that they should have done in the development of the system. Just look how quickly people picked up on it when the numbers were published. I was polite at first but this is really really basic stuff and their stubborn refusal to fix it is just asinine.

james bailey can confirm my 60 day cp if he wants to. it’s under 250. any recent B races since that huge string of CE enforced B races (before they finally fixed the MAP to actually function as it should) are non CE, i am CE A

but if he doesn’t want to then here is a relatively recent dual recording of a 24min steady state TT effort where i lose control over my HR (my max is about 200) after approximately 16 minutes at 250-253w average

When will the CE system formally replace the current system i.e. cat ratings on ZP profiles reflecting CE metrics etc.?

Will there be lots of fanfare, or will it be introduced surreptitiously? At the very least get someone like Eric (Zwift Insider) to run a detailed article well in advance or you will undoubtedly be inundated with complaints, queries :rofl:

i currently am since a trainer switch back in mid march and getting my Zwiftpower profile reset on this date, 4.1wg for 20 minutes and 5.5wkg for 5 minutes, although that 5min was in the socks4watts hill climb series not a standard race

Ask nicely

i’m not interested, i just want to point out that there are people who exceed the map threshold without necessarily being over the CP threshold. but i will be nice to you for free: thank you sincerely for your sisyphean attempt at public relations on these cursed forums

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Not so much a unicorn as a rhino then :slight_smile:

To be fair it’s clear your current best 20 min on ZP is some way down on your true 20 mins though. I would expect the CP calculation already puts that over 4 also, though that can’t really be checked.

Right, so you’re under 250W but over the 4.0 CP threshold. Having a watts floor for CP but not for MAP makes no sense, but then again, this is zwift…

I guessing from your posts that you’re still able to enter B? From our records you should have been A from April 3rd once your CP exceeded 250w.

no, i can only enter A as i should, but i would have thought it was because of my MAP which is currently about 6.1wkg for 5 and the limit is supposed to be 5.4. i didn’t realise my cp had exceeded 250w, so are you saying that i could still enter B with a 6 wkg 5 min if i don’t do long efforts? i had 6.2 for 5 in my 60 day history when i was still able to enter B. that seriously needs fixing IMO

When your CP was below 250 (which it hasn’t been for 6 weeks) you would have been able to enter B.

You are a very extreme example though.