A racing ghost town

Racing
1

Hello,

Since ZRS has been introduced, I have gone into the 690+ group.

Most complaints about ZRS seem to be about who is in which category, comparing scores across B and C etc

My issue isn’t with other racers. My issue is the complete lack of other racers in A.

Does anyone else have this concern?
I don’t want to log into a race of 1-3 people.
It’s the bunch dynamics and tactics that make it fun.

I have genuinely stopped racing, and I was doing 4+ a week right up to ZRS coming in.

I know that there are occasionally A races with a bigger group, but as a busy parent I don’t have the luxury of targeting these.

I have put a few kilos on since stopping - does this mean I will go back down soon anyway?

Fix it Zwift please!

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Find races, keep coming last till your score is below 650.

Zwifts fantastic implementation means users can just a pick a category lower by throwing a few races.

You might be unlucky at the moment to find your seed won’t let you drop any lower, await 30 second & 10min pbs to expire then throw more races to get down to your new floor.

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I would rather Zwift sort it out!

Even if I did drop to 650, if I then race without worrying about power, or if I do well, it would go back up to 690+?

Where is the fun racing if you have to try to minimize power or result? :frowning:

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Wouldn’t we all…

Though I feel you might run out patience waiting so an alternative is handy.

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There is no solution and there hasn’t been a solution and there likely never will be a solution.

Look for a racing series that actually attracts attention for A and A+ racers; large events, like ZRL, FRR, Chasing, find a team that does Ladder… etc.

I don’t see anything changing otherwise. There’s certainly been no attention given to it since I’ve been on Zwift and have brought it up, and it’s likely because that solution is just to look for larger events.

The population of A and A+ riders isn’t that high depending where you are in the world.

But yeah; welcome to it.
ToW is still ongoing, you can always treat it like a race and chase some people on eBikes that join those events if you want a similar experience!

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Completely agree, the 690 plus group does just not get any real numbers. I ended up racing on my own on Thursday evening at 6:10pm so somewhat peak zwift time in my timezone.

As I had planned to race all day I carried on and just treated it as a hard training session but it is no fun when you want to race - and to me that’s the main reason I am on zwift to race

Perhaps they need to adjust the banding to get more in the top group?

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When I first started racing, my memory was of A races that were always reasonably well populated - this would have been 2022? Did they change the categories?

I think Zwift absolutely has to try dynamic pens to tempt people into joining.

It could also move people into different categories on different courses. I am not remotely A on anything that goes uphill. I probably am on anything flat.

I basically scan ZP and companion app for populated races, and because there aren’t any, I don’t join.

How many others are doing the same I wonder?

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  1. This was the bit I can’t do - I can’t commit in the week to a set time.
  2. I also find understanding the leagues very confusing - I’m not a completely stupid person, and it just seems impenetrable.
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Racers on A have always been on the low side. This was made significantly worse with the CE categorization. Before above 4.2wkg for 20m on ZP categorization you were an A. Afterwards the boundary moved to 4.4 or so. Given a standard distribution that put a large chunk of A riders back to B. Numbers have dwindled since.

Given the setup of ZRS the spread of longer term power (let’s say 20 minutes) is far larger than before. Somewhat logical as its not the only deciding factor but spread is nonetheless larger then desired an above all: points obtained in races have little impact. Especially as lowering is as easy, if not easier, than increasing score. Then no one around the boundary will keep racing in A ergo 690+. Which reduces numbers even more than CE categorization limits did.

So, that’s where we are at now. Given the trajectory of racing in A the line is only further downwards.

Solutions:
Remove 30 seconds
Initial ranking on compound Score
When x races have been ridden, ignore initial seed
Get a best estimate of ability whereby it’s hard to lower your score. If you were able to beat rider x,y,z in recent past your score shouldnt drop below theirs. Whatever your results in few races after. Allowing a drop in score should be result of a significant change in ability over a long time frame. This biases scores upwards but it’s not unfair to rank people by their best performance rather than their average. It’s a competition, you should strive to perform well for a result not just average.

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What is particularly annoying is that there will often be 4 or 5 races scheduled within half an hour, all with less than 5 x 690+ riders signed up.

It’d be handy if there was a way to communicate with the sign ups, so you could try to coordinate and all join the same event.

Or another option would be to remove the 690+ category from some races, to push the population into a smaller pool of events?

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Hi Tom
I think you make a valid point and it’s a real shame that it’s come to this on Zwift. I am an A as well and previously I used to be just like you and loved racing and would do 4-5 a week. I have also noticed a massive decline in A fields as well.
I think there are numerous reasons. The race series are a big factor. Most As end up in big teams, and then the series dominate. So for me it’s ZRL on Tuesday, Ladder League Wednesday and a TTT on Thursday, and Sunday Race Club on Mywhoosh at the weekend, so that’s it really, no window for more races really, as I have to rest the other days or just do recovery stuff.
I think for a lot of riders the buzz of being in a team ultimately becomes the main draw when it comes to racing, and there is way more scope for tactics when riding in team events, hence much more interesting racing.
I also think that there are too many races vis-a-vis the number of As, and once all the A fields get too diluted, As give up on random races and focus on the series like ZRL and FRR.
I also think some As are very frustrated with the amount of cheating on Zwift, and the series help avoid that problem as the teams are somewhat self policing i.e. in terms of preventing cheating within the teams, and if all teams do that it should help reduce it significantly.
For my part there is also a huge amount of boredom. I have done 575 races on Zwift I am so bored now and looking for new challenges on other platforms.
I also don’t think ZRS has helped either. I think it’s been pretty disastrous and not well handled. It was certainly part of the reason I gave up random races.
I really do understand your frustration though and I would suggest trying a team. Most teams are full of busy parents and are pretty tolerant of people not being available all the time. They normally just need a bit of structure in terms of what evenings and times generally work best.
I hope that is of some use.

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I think removing 690 for some events would be great.

Even if there was only one race every two hours - in terms of the 10 past official Zwift races, it would condense the As into a proper race

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Just dont allow that many races in the same timeframe. If all those riders were in a single event you’d have 20 participant.

There are just way too many events currently. Not just in A but in all cats. Zwift need to do something about that. It will be highly unpopular amongst clubs but it is needed.

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I don’t think slimming down the A races would be a problem - I think everyone can get on the same page that 5 empty races in an hour benefits no one?

Have Zwift commented on the issue any point?

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I think this illustrates the point.

A couple of viable races in the screenshot, but there is no way that many races can fill up.

It’s actually better today, gives me some hope, but midweek, evenings, early mornings are just dead

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James in the past said they were going to clean up all the empty zombie events from the calendar but that clearly hasn’t happened.

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All of this. If you can, race the big events. If you are at the bottom of the A, you are left behind and if you race you need to deal with all the nonsense.
A is the least serviced and cared for group. It is too small to be a factor. And they do not have much of a voice. At best some have a social following of 200 people.
Top level is doing great, a golden era even.

Not the place but who had the bright idea of calculating a seed score from a couple of 10 min rides? And not jumping from it once we produce very different numbers?
I did a couple of rides, as part of my warm up and jumped into racing. I race in A anyway, did not matter. After 10 or so ok races, some podiums whatever… I am still under A limits. 680 or so. It would be so easy to just stay here and decimate B races. Just do some flat races and come last in the sprint. As I always do even when I try not to. I blong to top of A, not to brag or anything, I am just cannon fodder there. If 10 good races does not even get me to the bottom of A there is a problem.

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4-5 an hour are from Zwift…

The experiment to run is if there was 1 single option each hour that varied hill/points/sprint or distance … would more people total race

And maybe create a more restricted community calendar … ie no more than 1 major event per 6hr block on weekday and no more than 2-3 at the weekend

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I did the tiny races today, terribly, and still didn’t drop much score?

Set to continue in A, it’s hard to lose rating when there are few races with people in!

Edit: turns out ZRS is slow to update after tiny races (duh), so rating plummeted.

In summary:
4x Tiny Races (A) - can’t get over the climb with the group = minus 70 ZRS.
1x ZWS race (B) with decent climbing - can’t get over the big climb today. Dropped more ZRS despite not being far off 5 min power PB.

I’m a very happy little B racer again.

I think ZRS needs some work though, it is banding some really decent climbers in with some very heavy riders, and any climb really filters by WKG very quickly.

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Its not just A, but B, and C too.

These are two races one year apart. Both 12:10 UK time, which used to be a popular time slot for those working from home, and the US waking up. Both years Tour of Watopia was running at the time.

I don’t know if its racers avoiding Zwift Racing Score so they don’t get promoted, or if a lot of people have left due to the subscription hikes.

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I think its a real shame if people are avoiding promotion as its making the problem worse. The 690 pen would be much more fun if those at the top of B joined in. Sure we would get dropped but we could have a race within a race.
As it is, I’m racing much less because I can’t find a decent pen.

With any luck when January arrives, fields will get larger again and we will eventually have more promotions to the 690 group - even if they are trying to avoid it.

Here’s my current observations of ZRS in the upper two categories

800+
Either a top racer, likely to podium regularly in top category. Likely known in the community, is transparent with dual recordings, verification, and competes in elite events.

or, strange racing behaviour coupled with world tour steady state power. It’s unknown if they are a bot, a moon-lighting pro, using a Bluetooth spoofing app, have a poorly calibrated spin bike, or e-bike. They often have no profile photo (preferring graphics and avatars), data is private and they don’t race in elite events. (Maybe because their pro contract prohibits it :grin: )

740 to 800
Could be a punchy sprinter, or a great climber. Likely to finish mid pack in top Category, with a few podium spots in smaller fields and on routes that suit their ability.

690 to 740
Boundary rider, might yo-yo up and down. Would podium in most old B cat races.

640 to 690
Strong B cat rider, can podium in races with smaller field. Will often be in top half of the results.

600 to 640 Mid B Cat rider. Top 10 in almost every B race during the weekdays but comes last in Cat A Tiny Races on Saturday.

520 to 600 Mid to lower B Cat rider that can hold their own in the draft. Probably used to winning regularly when the were in old Cat C.

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