Zwift Racing Score [July 2023]

Maybe I missed a point here, but if you want to sort riders into pens, one metric isn’t enough.

Sorting riders into competitive pens would need to take the race route, profile and length into account.
eg.
On a Short flat race, race ranking and points with short time power metrics should be weighted more then the pace group or zFtp.
In contrast, a long climbing race would need to look more to the pace group, zFtp and long time power meters.

So, I think the Zwift racing score is a good new helpful metric but using it solely to sort pens is as flawed as the other approaches.

Maybe getting a little off topic, but I don’t really agree. If you go down that avenue, you end up with extremely boring and predictable races. If there is a 3 minute climb that decides a race, and you match people on their 3m power, they all get over the top together and it’s yet another sprint. For this reason, a global rating is better, even if course profile is considered in any rating change.

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Please just get together with the ZR.app guys and build on what they’ve spent a long time putting together, instead of reinventing the wheel.

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Yes. It’s good progress on a feature that’s been requested for a while. Once implemented it can be iterated on.

People are trying to make it do more than the feature they originally requested, and to make it perfect on iteration one.

I personally hope this gets less focus than attempts to make physics more real, verification more robust, and racing more interesting. I’m starting to think that’s not what your typical committed zwift racer wants though. The majority seems to want a pack ride they can win followed by a score that says “you improved”.

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I don’t think that’s true. As far as I recall, people have asked for a better way of categorising racers that isn’t just based on power numbers, and fundamentally that’s all that was requested. “Results based” categorisation is a means to an end.

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We have been asking for race ranking so that pens can be defined based on race ranking instead of w/kg.

This is a points system, something we already have in ZP.

Squire brackets :roll_eyes:

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Did the oldskool Zwiftpower rank score ever do anything as regards pen allocation, or was it always simply a random number, that didn’t reflect relative ability for most racers?
For me personally, it has always been a nonsense number, it doesn’t remotely reflect my ability aginst my pen D peers, except perhaps a little for those that race against me in the Tiny Races.

Was a simple formula applied to each rider’s oldskool Zwiftpower rank score, to convert it to an initial Zwift Racing Score, which could then be used through the last 90 days of races each rider did?

Were any race results ignored for any rider’s last 90 day history, because for instance they were a pen D racer and they completed a strong pen A race?

Were any DQed race results considered for adjustments over the last 90 days, because a rider had not followed a series rule, for instance joining races 3 and 4 of the 1000-1100 Tiny Races and getting a win and second (but were then DQed because of the “no sniping” rule)?

Were there any adjustments made to post-race Zwift Racing Score changes, to take account of things such as a rider doing a lot of short races like Tiny Races, but rarely taking part in races that took more than 20 minutes?

What happened if a racer got pen premoted or demoted in the last 90 day evaluation period?

If I was trying to do something loosely based on this Zwift Racing Score, as a starting point for each racer, I would start by splitting the 1000 into four equal parts, one for each “pace group” pen. I would then start each rider in the middle of their pen’s range (875 for As; 625 for Bs; 375 for Cs; 125 for Ds). Every rider starts with a clean slate, no presumptions on relative ranks from the flawed oldskool Zwiftpower rank score. Then work the 90 day race history, ignoring anomalies such as a pen D rider racing in pen A. If a rider changes pen, their rank is reset to that pen’s middling rank.
… Or something like that!

The evolution of the zwiftracing.app ranking system over last winter, with latest solutions to problems kicking in on 3rd June, has been great to see. About the only slight concern I have at the moment is how custom length races are categorised by the “flat; rolling; hilly; mountain” modifier. But the important issues, like flagging riders who go slow or join pens much higher than their ability, all now get caught.

This has been in the works for months. Latest test results have been VERY promising. Looks like there will be another few weeks of testing (at least 4 races a week if you want to try) to verify and possibly tweak.

Below is the forum if you’d like to learn more - most recent test feedback starts at comment #173.
Some people also provided video of their experience if you’d like to see it yourslef.

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Gosh, how ridiculously condescending.

Do you have any quotes from people who wish for those things or is it purely an invention if your mind?

Which part did you want quotes on?

This is the latest (probably) in a string of requests for results based categories. Though I suspect it wasn’t promised since 2017(?) Results/ranking based categories NOW!

The pace and sprint comment was based more on anecdotal feedback from races. People seem to be annoyed at being upgraded on zMAP recently, no one complained about being downgraded the month before. Comments above in this thread have people asking to be able to stay in a lower cat that they can win in.

You can also see it in feedback on enforcing DNFs, RGT (which did enforce DNFs on ranking), and IV. People want to be in with a chance until the end of the race. If a race is hard from the start more people quit. Unlike in real life it is comparatively easy for them to do another race or ride instead of finishing in a small pack/solo.

If you meant that people want a chance at winning, as you now seem to be saying, you choice of words was very high-minded.

Now, back to the question. Do you think that this points system is better than zr.app? You seem to have misread it as whether it’s better than existing.

I’m saying people want a chance to win more than they want to improve themselves or have realistic racing where there is a risk that they will be dropped. Like a video game on arcade mode vs sim mode.

I did answer the original question. It is better, because it is integrated in Zwift. I’m sure Zwfit will eventually move towards ZRApp or similarly be “inspired by it”. This is however the first step in delivering a feature that was requested.

I also do not believe this is the most important feature to optimize as compared to; fixing existing bugs with steering, applying automatic flagging/removal of people who do not meet requirements for a race or have unrealistic performance, helping new users onboard with more accurate calibrations, and putting in automated testing that stops bugs re-appearing with each major map update.

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The post you quoted is asking for a Ranking system not a scoring system.

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Only last week got promoted from CAT C to Cat B although I had to do a non staggered start to achieve and stick with As for 20min. happy to progress though. Now in B I only have option to do basically 20min Ftp from every start. as 3.26 barely gets me into that Cat. Tried the dirt series last night hoping my pen would be a mix of old skool low Bs and high Cs. which it was. It was in no way dominated by any one rider but everyone had to push and thus improve etc. Looking forward to these each week now although hoping the sprinter specialist do at least try the hilly routes etc.

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I love reading comments like this one. Makes the work worth it!

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A points system isn’t the first step towards a rating system. One cannot evolve in to the other. Maybe the cleanest way to sort this out is to use Zwift Racing Score as an incentive mechanism and then adopt a rating system for placing riders in to pens, which buys them a few months anyway. They don’t have to use zr.app for this, but as there has been some much community input and development, it would be a bit of a no brainer.

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There doesn’t have to be this adversarial “I want this feature and anyone chasing other features is wrong” mentality. I’m sure most people here probably agree with you on other features as well, but in this particular case, ZHQ has told us they’re working on this feature and want feedback on it. Not to mention these features aren’t mutually exclusive. We can have results-based categorization while also improving pack dynamics and everything else.

I genuinely think the majority of racers, both casual and committed, just want fun races where they have a shot at winning if they do well. Under the CE system now, you basically don’t have a chance of winning unless you’re near the top of your cat. Good luck to any C racers with an FTP of 2.7w/kg, for example.

My own cycling journey is evidence of this, and something I’d bet a lot of beginners can agree with. I primarily cycle through Zwift, and my interactions with racing and the broader platform have trended basically alongside my power profile. I would start in mid-D and find myself racing more, having more fun, and getting much fitter until I was able to contest D races frequently. But when I crossed over the line into C, I would lose motivation and stop interacting with Zwift altogether for months.

I’m now at my fittest ever and have kept up with cycling, Zwifting, and racing for more time than I ever have before because of the ZR.app results-based system. I can find races that give me a good chance to hang with the group and maybe win, regardless of where I’m at in the legacy power-based system. Am I going to win every race? Absolutely not. But at least I know I can hang around instead of getting dropped instantly under CE.

To me, results-based categorization isn’t about getting more wins or a cool score, it’s about being better for reaching new users and racers, providing a fun and fair race environment, and giving people more reason to push themselves and improve instead of just sitting at a cat boundary.

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Switching some races to a “score” vs “wattage” and doing the change management with the wider community along with the technical switch over in game. That is the first step. As I’ve said a couple of times… it’s more about making the sign up flow for an event simple or even automatic then explaining how it was done after.

Over time they can tweak, update or switch that over to something better. Likely ZRApp or a copy as I’ve said multiple time. They have however started down the journey, 4years after it was initially requested. That’s a good thing. They probably regret it because the majority of people here are annoyed at how the first iteration is vs the benefit of starting to iterate.

Even more optimistically. ZRApp can continue to iterate and improve on it’s flaws alongside and then simply plug and play. Battle testing ZRApp for when the influx of outdoor riders hits the platform again in October will be useful learning.

That’s a great journey. I’ve always been borderline A and B with a decent sprint so I’ve had a similar experience. Establishing in D and getting to C is obviously a tougher “foothold” but this is why I’m in favor of keeping a decent amount of mass start events around where whatever my current category is I can just race the A’s and B’s.

Part of the reason it is so hard to establish in a new w/kg cat is that the raw power at the top end of the cat is now much higher than it was. The top B by w/kg is at 6.3w/kg 20min. The top by power is at 427watts. They likely get upgraded by this change, and then B is likely more balanced racing. These people aren’t cheating, one is a light kid and one is a diesel. Both have solid race craft.

I’m sure ZRApp or Zwift can look at the distribution of w/kg around the cat limits and I would assume it shows strong clustering rather than a normal distribution. This is partly sandbagging/ or boosting power to get to the top end, and partly because people get used to racing at a specific power so they are plateau there.

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2/3 US national (esport) champions are B cat riders.