zPower: Don't be a "Flier"


(Alison Kubota [Vision] CVR) #161

The funniest thing I ever saw while riding Zwift was a zPower flier not only pushing 1200+ watts but also upwards of 300rpm cadence.   Those legs were spinning really fast!  The Orange Triangle of Shame was promptly tacked onto him but not before I was able to get screenshots for posterity.  


(Michael Meysarosh) #162

Well, that kind of cadence is pretty much out of reach of pretty much any human! Most likely the flier was just moving magnets pass the sensors manually to record figures as such. Depending on the resistance model of the trainer used, I think you might find the cadence rate and wheel rotation rate were quite similar.


(Liam) #163

Lots of good posts. Funny how all the zpower rides say their setup is accurate and there is no problem. But the leader boards suggest otherwise. Zpower riders are all genetic freaks of nature worthy of a tour de france contract.

To be a top level cat 1 you need to train 15 to 20 hours per week and be putting out 4.8 watts per kilo. This is serious commitment. Most cat 1/2s have a power meter, a coach and a structured training plan. But all the Zpower KOM riders can put out 9 watts/kilo for hours (due to lots of talent and training) yet don’t even own a power meter.

If I am going to pay for Zwift it is because I want to ride and train with people. I won’t pay money to get dropped by Zpower superstars.

Zpower riders need their own course. Or maybe allow power meter riders to select a course for power meter users only.

And power meter riders need their own leader boards and jersey. It would be great if you could block out or hide Zpower riders.

Zpower fliers ruin the experience for everyone. And there are Zpower fliers every 10 minutes. It is ridiculous.

Zpower fliers is digital doping. It has no place here.


(Will I Am Adams) #164

Liam 

you are dead on.   I am surprised why no one from zwift  has commented on this thread.  I would sign up immediately if this was addressed but refuse to do so. It’s a fatal flaw of zwift and until it’s addressed I won’t pay for it either

Sad thing is there are 5 solutions on this thread that would be simple to integrate…

 


(Jon) #165

Zwift are aware of the issues and I’m sure have some solutions in the pipeline.   There is no disagreement from me that a large number of people have incorrect setups (either by accident or to blatantly cheat).  As one of those Zpower (using TrainerRelay) riders who think their setup is close to reality it is frustrating to be grouped with those people.   My FTP (from TR) is 222 which is hardly pro level is it?   And a hard 25 miles on Zwift takes around the same time as my local outdoor 25 mile test loop.

I realise this post won’t solve your frustrations but just wanted to put it out there that not all Zpower users are trying to cheat.  

Cheers, Jon. 


(Will I Am Adams) #166

Jon

 

Point well taken -  no doubt its the minority that  are  doing something dishonest - but that is all it takes as  history has proved.

Hopefully the  team will  come up with be able to  implement some   upgrades to  better deal with it - th e concept  and  general functionality are  great.

Have you  also ridden with a  poser  trainer - I am  curious if the overall experience is  different between the 2  setups?


(Stewart ) #167

Will, whilst I don’t like it when the leaderboards are filled with Zpower and it is really annoying in the races when one just drops you with ease it is only a slight annoyance and in no way does it spoil it for me. Zwift has so many fantastic features that I will be gladly paying for it. Hope they do separate leaderboards and some verification for races but if they don’t then I will still enjoy a fantastic product.


(R Idge Cyclesport) #168

I didn’t read through all the comments, but I know I left feedback very early on in Beta when Zpower became a thing and the Fluid2 was offered as its own feedback.

As someone who owns a kickr and a fluid2, I was able to test, and one of my comments about this was that I was easily able to spin up to past 1200+ watts on the fluid2, even though the manufacture says it is only “accurate” to about 800 watts.

What Zwift needs to do, is hard cap zpower supported trainers. And if using unsupported/generic cap it at an even lower rate.


(Liam) #169

I would pay extra (i.e. a premium membership) to have the option of not seeing or riding with zpower riders. It would be fantastic if there was a button on the mobile app such as a Z with an X through it. Zpower riders out number power meter riders so let them have at her.

I gut myself to get the orange jersey to the point that I am messed up after the lap. 10 minutes later a Zpower rider has it. And then every 10 minutes a new Zpower KOM is crowned. They take all the jerseys buy a big margin.


(Will I Am Adams) #170

I would rather see it broken out as part of the subscription.  Honestly.  If you are hoping to ride virtually- doing so with a. Non power based trainer is like  gaming with  a 15 yr old computer or a car with a. Crank start.   Let those people ride. Just not with the group who has committed to modern equipment …


(Jon) #171


Will,

I’m looking at getting a power meter in the next 6 months and will do a comparison then.  All I have done so far is compare the Virtual power in TrainerRoad to Zpower in Zwift.  The screen shot attached shows this (zpower in purple).

Mic,

When did your do the test?  When I originally signed up for the beta and before started using TrainerRelay I remember sprinting at over 1000w but now can’t achieve it so Zwift have either tweaked the algorithm for the fluid 2 or my setup is different.  I now leave my bike on the trainer all the time and check the tyre pressure weekly.  

It does make me wonder, and this is not meant to be inflammatory, how much variation there is on smart trainers because are they not still affected by the relationship between the tyre and the roller?  Do you have to calibrate each time you’re put the bike on the trainer?  What difference does tyre pressure make?

My other thought, and I haven’t looked into this is what difference does wheel size make?  Zwift currently assumes a 700cc × 23 wheel.  If someone is using a 29" mountain bike how much faster is this spinning the turbo roller for the same effort?  Or am I over thinking this?

Cheers, Jon.


(Will I Am Adams) #172

There are a lot of  power trainers now - for the Computrainer you calibrate each time you ride (very simple - part of. A. basic warm up). This accounts for the variables you mentioned    once that is complete the power readings are. Very. accurate and the best measure  for performance and training


(Liam) #173

This morning I saw a Zpower rider getting KOMs. Had good power so I switched to Fan View. There I noticed his power stayed at an even 400 watts. It never varied by 1 watt though his heart rate did. His heart rate was in the 120 range +/- 5 beats. But power stayed the same.

But what was amazing is that when he came to a complete stop a few times, the power stayed at 400 watts. Even when stopped for a minute or two.

How did he do this? Please do tell.


(Will I Am Adams) #174

completely ridiculous!  There are hundred of  other  issues like this for the  non-power riders

I  don’t get it why  Zwift doesn’t separate the power and non-power riders - at least on the leader boards and  jerseys.

Let  them game  with themselves and all the crazy superhuman reading etc.

 

I just  want to  race against people with  generally a  similar  setup!


(Alison Kubota [Vision] CVR) #175

I did some flying on the very first time I tried Zwift.  I didn’t have a supported setup and I just wanted to get on to see.  I probably got a Orange Triangle of Shame too.  

If it’s the same person doing the same KOM nonsense over and over, then yeah, it’s annoying.  But it’s a guy you see do it for the first time, why not just give them the benefit of the doubt.  You’ll see a lot of first-time flyers from people trying the game for the first time.  

And if flyers really bothers you, just go do training mode, you won’t see the leaderboards, what you don’t see won’t bother you.


(Will I Am Adams) #176

 I’m sorry but that’s just a backwards approach.  Why do you punish the people that are set up correctly and are already paying for the service Why would you punish the people that are set up correctly and are already paying for the service here is the better solution make the people that are new and getting set up prove that they are set up correctly once they are set up properly then they can come in and play nice with everybody else. 

 Additionally why do the people that are subscribers and already set up properly need to go into a different mode to deal with the flaws in the basic system that also doesn’t make sense 

I’ve seen people say oh if it bothers you that these guys are getting jerseys then just do this just turn off the monitor i’ve seen people say oh if it bothers you that these guys are getting jerseys then do you work out mood or just riding don’t pay tension to the leaderboard or turn off your monitor all that just seems so illogical to me

At the end of the day I don’t really care if there somebody that gets a jersey and they are gaming the system but it would just be nice to have a deal set up so that was generally a rare occurrence and not something that’s happening 100% of the time.  

 

 


(Alison Kubota [Vision] CVR) #177

If you really want to race with people with similar setups, Will I Am, you should be (if not already) in the ZTR races on tuesday and thursday.  zPower riders are essentially filtered out, and in some of the races, there have been real primes and prize money associated with top finishes, through sponsorship with Nathan Guerra’s stream.  You can go up against top riders like Templaar, Coppex, Guerra, and more.  So the punishment is essentially shifted to the zPower riders.  Ride on!


(Liam) #178

I’ve been riding the course in reverse. Generally a lot less riders, but the majority have power meters. The Zpower riders on the reverse course are generally only doing 2 or 3 watts/kilo. Don’t tell anyone about this though.


(Will I Am Adams) #179

Good. Info!  Thx!


(Paul McCombes) #180

@Liam Maps - I’ve also not spotted the orange triangles in the reverse course (and I’m a zpower user - my bike is so old that actually getting a power meter on will cost more than the bike is worth, so a new bike is the obvious way forward, eventually).

Anyway I did manage to get a green jersey which is frankly astonishing (12.94 on the reverse sprint I think - I am not by any stretch a sprinter) which is another advantage but this was mainly due to there being only 4 others I think of the leaderboard. I’ve tried to get my setup accurate (and for this it will be pretty close) using a KK road machine with constant pressures and a set number of turns to tighten onto the wheel (2 1/4 as that seems about right). So it is a bit disappointing to have the pretty hostile comments about zpower users above.

I’d suggest preventing winning a jersey/acheivements if you are on a trial - I’m hoping the current crop of edopers will find other mischief for free rather than pay to be a clown, so less free booty is less incentive.