zPower: Don't be a "Flier"


(Liam) #261

 

_ "Michael Meysarosh _ _ As for the regular ‘offenders’, I feel that it could even occur in the power meter world. Its an open protocol and I could easily whip up an app to emulate a power meter and feed whatever data I so choose." _

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Yes, you are correct. I have seen cheaters using power meter emulators. The 8 watts per kilo for 2 hours gives them away.

 

But the big issue here is Zpower. They smoke all power meter users all of the time. Let’s get this fixed first.


(Chris. K EssexRoadsCC.) #262

The beauty of Zwift is it can be used as a game or a more serious training and motivation aide. I use it as the latter and I’m not the slightest bit interested in or bothered by fliers, virtual Jersey’s or group leader boards, they are all for the game players who must try to win and good luck to them. All I’m interested in is comparing my own times with my previous efforts and trying to improve, do structured training and ride with friends. Zwift has motivated me to keep up my training this winter when the weather has been too bad to ride for real. 

If anything my vote would be to have the option to disable group leader boards and virtual Jersey’s in the settings.


(malcolm may (WCC) C) #263

I have a lemond revolution. Its calibrated, and while I seem to be losing credit att he high numbers, its close enough to my outside watts that I don’t feel too bad. The trainer itslef doesn’t allow me to hit the highest wattage, as it takes a bit to spin up. Unlike my powertap where I can get to maximum watts in a relatively few pedal strokes.

But even thoguh I enjoy the zwift experience and it gives me joy to train this way, it is irritating to see peopel riding up the hardest climbs in 15 seconds at 37 mph, when the pros can’t get up that climb on their best day in under 45 seconds. 

While Richmond is virtual course, it does have plenty of performance cycling data associated with the WCs. If any rider exceeds those performance parameters then don’t give them the KOM, zero them out. I am sure the lazy, and/or the cheats will be motivated enough to correct their set up or just leave.

Have the system ignore the ridiculous numbers. It doesn’t have to be too techinical, just blank the ridiculous numbers. 


(Liam) #264

Zwift, when are you going to do something about this?

The other day a Zpower rider was smoking everybody, He basically told everyone that he was too weak to play fairly so he turned his resistance to zero and took all the KOMs on one lap.

Please limit Zpower riders to a maximum of 4 watts/kilo.

 


(malcolm may (WCC) C) #265

Flag him and bag him. Seems quite simple

 


(Alison Kubota [Vision] CVR) #266

The screenshots are priceless!


(Johnny RCCSFC (D)) #267

it’s fine banning when its free… but once someone is paying, well it’s a little more tricky.

easy… no jerseys for Zpower users… goodnight.


(malcolm may (WCC) C) #268

What a dick you are if you think that zpower users all cheat, and none of the ‘real’ power people are honest. 

No wonder you use a false name. Your mother would be embarrassed. 

 

I bet you don’t even understand the range of trainers used in the ‘non-power’ range


(wayne watt) #269

how about no jerseys for anyone that shuts up all the whingers

 


(Johnny RCCSFC (D)) #270

sounds good wayne.

 

easy Mai… no reason to get personal. 


(Jason Buccellato) #271

mal, you are creating a straw man argument. Johnny Strava never said Zpower users are the only cheats. You are reading that into his statement all by yourself.

 

 


(malcolm may (WCC) C) #272

yet he wishes to apply the penalty to all zpower users.  How about doing away with jerseys? 

I could give a shpoop as I can’t compete on my trainer, and I’m aged and worn. But if the zpowers are out of control, its clear when they are, so scrap their times - and if its accidental then send them a note. If they don’t change then scrap their times.

There are a whole bunch of guys going up the 23 rd st climb in under 20 seconds. The KOM is a 37.2 mph average. And he’s on a bkool, and has made no attempt to set it up. In his words, “I just sit my fat ass on the bike and pedal”. This whole process needs to be managed better. When they operate outside the realms of sanity, flag them. When they don’t change, let them run around the island or track, but don’t let anyone KOM with a flag. Its not that hard.

There is a lot of hard instructions around which trainer, but I don’t see it as obvious in the fine print of actually how the trainer is set up. I tend to think its like th e23rd st KOM guy. He bolted his bike in and rode it.


(Liam) #273

Jason Buccellato PZR (A) Today at 16:27

mal, you are creating a straw man argument. Johnny Strava never said Zpower users are the only cheats. You are reading that into his statement all by yourself.

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Exactly! Straw man arguments are disingenuous.

Fact is serious riders have power meters.

Fact is casual riders with a passing interest in cycling don’t buy power meters.

Fact is most of the riders/subscribers to Zwift have power meters.

Fact is most of the KOMs are Zpower riders. And they beat power meter riders by minutes.

But the Zpower riders scream loud and long that their system is calibrated properly, if anything, under estimates their true power and they would stop using Zwift if there were separate leader boards.

Zwift, you have the subscription data. There is no need to cater to non power meter riders. They are the minority.


(Liam) #274

A lot of time, Zwift has 100 riders on the course doing their own thing. It is hard to get a ride or race organized. So you just elect to ride by yourself and go for segment times. But is frustrating when Zpower Zach is getting all the KOMs because he is averaging 800 watts or 10 watts/kilo.

Group rides on Zwift are really fun. I have done some races. You are just barely hanging on and at your limit. People are getting dropped. Just like a real race.

I have notice Zpower cheaters in these racers but people just ignore them as they ride off the front. See yah!

Zwift should make it easier to organize rides/races. This takes the focus off of the jerseys.


(Michael Meysarosh) #275

Someone who enjoys cycling doesn’t require a power meter to anything of the like. Certainly when the motivation changes from something like a social group/fitness type of rides to dedicated competition, things certainly change a bit and power meters become a very important tool. One which is becoming much more accessible every passing year.

We’ve also have reports of power meter emulation that would make your terms of segregation of any kind moot. The reality being that if someone is paying a subscription for the sole purpose of messing with the minds and egos of some competitors, its simply going to happen. So today is zPower users, tomorrow its power meter puffers. 

As for the person who openly admitted to cheating, that is one sad sap. Think of the mentality of a person when they get satisfaction off fictional figures from a game. I can’t see a person like that having that much to look forward to.

But hell, we all know people who tend to not live in reality. So in this world of Zwift, or anything even remotely similar, an absolute solution to competition is unlikely to found. I’ve read some good ideas and some awful ones thus far and somewhere down the line, some homogenization of ideas will make something that works for the majority of us and is generally satisfactory.

On a separate note, thanks to global warming I took a ride out on local path nearby to enjoy a bit of the day this past Suday. I hit few PR’s and knocked off the highest top speed on small descent (I stopped that as there were a good number of people around and other deterrents in the area). I felt fresher after the ride than I had in any past outings. I’m a zPower user and I have taken care in process of my setup. Obviously the estimated power in Strava is educated guesswork, but those figures are surprisingly within a couple watts to my Zwift figures in the game. As I do work my way upwards, of course with a little loss in mass :wink: and increase in power, I will likely invest a PM to go further. Still, zPower has been very helpful thus far as a beginner and has provided some interesting education. I’m certainly looking forward to do something more challenging and I know the knowledge gained from metrics will help best prepare for it, so I do see the value in the investment. 

Given time and good feedback, Zwift has the potential to work with a variety of groups with different interest. I do have a solution to deal with PM emulators, but its going to be a somewhat costly effort to deal with a few nitwits in a video game.


(Liam) #276

 

Michael Meysarosh thanks for your perspective. Appreciate it!


(malcolm may (WCC) C) #277

Exactly! Straw man arguments are disingenuous.

Fact is serious riders have power meters.

Fact is casual riders with a passing interest in cycling don’t buy power meters.


What rot Liam. Interesting your name backwards is Spam Mail.

Fact is I have a power meter. 


(Chris B (D)) #278

Serious riders can’t afford power meters unless they’re sponsored. 

Really seems people should be training more and bitching on forms less. 

Off for a ride, in the real world. 


(Craig) #279

Liam Maps said  Yesterday at 17:40

Zwift, when are you going to do something about this?

The other day a Zpower rider was smoking everybody, He basically told everyone that he was too weak to play fairly so he turned his resistance to zero and took all the KOMs on one lap.

Please limit Zpower riders to a maximum of 4 watts/kilo.

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I don’t want to alter the experience of anyone on Zwift.  If someone uses zpower to fly around the course, and they enjoy it, and are at least on a bike, I really don’t care.  I just don’t want to be measured against their performance, and by awarding jerseys and having ‘leaderboards’… that is what Zwift is doing.  

I know that 99.99% of the people who have the RL ability to fly around the course use a power in real life, and they train with power indoors.  So… while cheaters can be found with power meters, zpower uses dominate the leader boards regularly, so their numbers are likely to be much less accurate than anyone fudging 10kg or something.  

The solution, in my opinion, until Zwift figures it out, is to have separate leader boards.  I really don’t care if the guy pushing 1500 watts for 10 minutes loses against some guy whose pushing 1800 watts… 

Suggestion:  When you see a flyer message this:  #SLB… and perhaps we can gather some momentum for Zwift to act.


(Marcus Durant @VanelliCycling) #280

I’ll check back in a years time and see if this gets cleared up (when I get another 2 months free from strava). Until then, I’ll take my power-meter, dumb trainer & money to TrainerRoad. I have enough self motivation to do without the graphical stimulation.

Don’t get me wrong, I think Zwift is a great thing, but it could be so much better, mainly around the area of policing flyers & race integration.

I personally would want the (paid for) ability to ignore zpower and virtual power from smart trainers. or at the very least be able to differentiate between something that has been engineered with a strain gauge & something that spits out a number based on its own internal maths.

Unfortunately, this is the level of paranoia that my initial 5 month or so Zwift experience has built up. It would take a lot of change for me to become a believer again. Pity as for me, the virtual race aspect is the strongest selling point. Better be careful someone else doesn’t jump on a solution before Zwift dev’s figure out what they want to do about it.

Still seems a bit Beta phase to me. but thanks for the experience.

M