Compound Score found 5min ability closely matched race ability in young pros.
But the big problem we have in Zwift is there are relatively few climbs that will take 5mins+ for all race abilities and it then becomes even more of an issue when so few races go up said climbs.
It would certainly help if the likes of Tiny Races regularly included 3.1Km+ of Ven Top (although given ~3W/Kg can complete that distance in approx 10mins, I think stronger pens should be covering up to ~5.5Km given top riders could climb that at 5-6W/Kg and I suspect they could complete 3.1Km of Ven in under 5mins).
Even if popular series did include climbs that would even take top pen A riders 5mins+, there’s absolutely no guarantee that everyone would give a maximum effort and then get a true seed score.
Would changing seed score to 2-3mins drastically increase the number of little climbs in Zwift that could pick up true ability, even for those in pens A and B, which over that duration could easily be ~7W/Kg going on UK Hill Climb National Championships in recent years?
Yes, I’ve heard this before. The problem is 99% of us are NOT young pros. We’re not young for the most part and we’re about as far from pros as one can be. So using 5 minute ability doesn’t apply in the scenario. At all.
I’ve said this before, V1 and V2 of ZRS gave the most engaging race experience for me and most of the people I know on Zwift. Pelotons stayed together for most of the races, both flat and hilly, and while I didn’t win races because I have literally no sprint, I had lots of fun racing with a group.
Zwift needs to go back to one of those and fix the finishing postion metric. Then we might get back to having races instead of training exercises…
That’s why Tim at https://www.zwiftracing.app/ modified the original Compound Score with a weight factor iirc, to make it work well with the wide range of ability in Zwift racing.
I’ve heard the “people haven’t recorded anything near maximum effort” argument before. As long as Zwift doesn’t apply changes in power metric to ZRS immediately after each event this will be true. I don’t know about you but every time I race, I go all out. My power numbers are at their absolute max because I don’t know how else to race.
The V1 seed score was flawed because it used 30 second power instead of a longer interval. 30 second matters at the finish but not so much during the meat of the race. 2 minute ability would give a much more accurate picture an individual’s short game. 5 minute power doesn’t give an accurate picture of a rider’s long or short abilities. Granted this is based upon my experience but take a minute and look at race results. Right now, the riders with short power are over represented at the top of the results.
Yes, he did but that has absolutely nothing to do with ZRS. Unless Zwift implements another outside application like they did with Zwiftpower, this changes nothing.
It isn’t having the same power profile in each pen, it’s establishing a metric to give an engaging race experience for the majority of participants. Right now, we don’t have that.
100% seed score in Racing Score is determined by 5min ability and weight, something close to if not exactly like given by ZWIFT ZRS v3 by VirtuSlo and Tim was involved in Racing Score some months ago (no idea if he still is).
There’s certainly plenty of issues with Racing Score besides how 100% seed score is calculated.
Off the top of my very fuzzy head they include…
Allowing Racing Score to drop 15% below 100% seed score through results, allowing an awful lot of racers to race in a pen below their 100% ability (including Peter recently).
Data used to determine seed score only going back 90 days, instead of closer to 12 months, making it easy for riders returning after a Zwift vacation to wreak havok in lower ability pens.*
Smaller field numbers giving bigger score changes for those that finish the race route at what ZwiftHQ determines is a reasonable effort, when beating say 100 fellow pen racers in a Tiny Race should give much bigger score increases.
Does signing up without joining the start pen still effectively increase pen field numbers and reduce score changes for those that finish the race at an acceptable effort?
etc.
Although their pre-break Racing Score remains when they return, so they have to finish a number of races badly while keeping their seed score low to drop down to lower pens.
But that still doesn’t have anything to do with what we have right now. Zwift needs to commit to fixing this or walk away from making racing a viable part of the experience.
Correct, and when we only look at powers it will never be equal for everyone.
You do better at long hard races, I do better in sprints and there are people who are better at climbing, or break aways.
And somehow we are looking for a formula that puts all those riders in the same cat and make it worthwhile for all. And on top of that we expect everyone to race on their best every race, while we all know that doesnt happen.
And things like the route, terrain and level of opponents arent taken into the calculation at all at the moment.
You see a lot of short burst riders win more, but that is also to blame on the race organizers. Flatter racers attract more riders, so that is why there are more of them.
If you look at the Pinkii races that Sisu are doing at the moment, you will see that hardly any of those races were won by a sprinter due to the route they selected. But for most cases organiers pick a route that will get them the most participants.
So I am afraid it will be very hard to come up with something that will work for everyone due to the things that have to be taken into the calculation.
The ZRacing.app looks nice, but that also has it flaws and so will everything have they or we come up with.
Can ZRS be better, sure it can, but it looks like an abondoned project and promises and road maps arent made by Zwift sadly enough.
Also has to do with not even 20% of a Zwift subscribers that are racing…
For the sake of riders trying to be honest and just having a malfunctioning power meter, wouldn’t you hope Zwift ignores 2000W for 5mins as a seed score?
If it’s a one off maybe, but considering that account is showing multiple such activities, each many hours long, this is beyond just a trainer malfunction.
That account seemingly exists to highlight flaws in how zwift handles rider categorisation, to show how it can be manipulated. Hopefully one day zwift will put in the effort to fix these flaws.
It’s a seed score calculator. It can only calculate your seed score, and your floor is 15% lower.
It’s not necessarily perfect but it’s very close.
Once you’ve done a race your score won’t change by itself except if your floor goes above your current score. Your power record will expire after 90 days, and your floor with it, but that won’t change your score.
