Time between Training session limitation


(C Grindle) #1

I love the new training plans, doing the Grand Fondo.  But, don’t like that Zwift dictates the time before the next work out.  Looks like it is set to 24 hours (but likely variable based on the workout).  It has prevented me from getting a work out in (if I want to follow the training plan) because I’m unable to lock the next event.  If I work out one day, and then try to work out 21 hours later, it won’t let me.  Frustrating as I have to work out when my schedule permits, so missed two opportunities to work out because of the arbitrary limitation (was three hours short of unlocking, but that cost an extra day).

Please allow users to unlock the next workout w/o dictating a time limitation.


(Jordan Rapp) #2

Hi,

No workout has a lock out time longer than 20hrs. And that is from activity start, not activity end. So you should have been fine to do a session 21hrs later. As for the blackout itself, without it, it’s not actually a training *plan*;  it’s just a bunch of workouts. It’s not at all an arbitrary limitation; the lockout is there to ensure adequate recovery between workouts. 

I’ll check with our dev team, as if you were locked out after 21hrs, that’s a bug. And you do have my apologies for that. The lockouts were explicitly designed with the assumption that most people workout at _about _the same time day-to-day - exactly the scenario you seem to be describing.

Best,

Jordan

Zwift Game Design


(Lynette Curtiss) #3

I’d like to see that assumption go away because I am not always able to workout at the same time.  I have lost the ability to do a training session because I wasn’t able to start at the same time/the time that Zwift dictate.  It would be nice to have the ability to do the next session any time during the day of the workout rather than within said hours.  Does that make sense?


(Vincent W.) #4

It makes sense Lynette! What Jordan is saying however is that the plans are tailored towards a majority of members schedules and are meant to be followed with a little less variance, so there are bound to be those who fall in the outliers. The workouts are a lot more flexible and can work around your personal schedule.

As always, keep the suggestions coming! 


(Paul Twardowski) #5

On this point, please make the timing aspect of the training programs a guideline and not a restriction.

(a) I’m doing the Build Me Up and I’ve found myself waiting for the last 20 min on the clock to tick down to 24 hours so I can do the next work out.  Quite annoying as you can imagine.  This has happened several times, so I don’t agree that the default is 20 hours gap.

(b) most 3rd party training plans allow you to bump the plan back if delays happen (as life always happens).  I’m going on vacation for a week and won’t be able to zwift.  From other posters on Facebook it appears and the workouts ‘expire’ if you don’t do them in time and you only have the option to skip that week you missed.  That will be quite frustrating if it is the case.


(Vincent W.) #6

Thanks for the detailed feedback Paul! We’ve gotten a lot of responses and great feedback regarding our training plans, and as usual we are paying very close attention. Let us know what other suggestions or opinions you have on training plans or anything else in Zwift :) 


(Jim Mattson) #7

I’m currently in a 15-minute hold for build-me-up orange unicorn. My last build-me-up workout started just shy of 48 hours ago. I have a hard stop when I need to leave for work, so it would be very helpful to be able to start the workout a little early, particularly since this one is 30 minutes longer than the last one.

A strict 48 hour delay makes it impossible for me to get up a little earlier to do a longer workout.


(Jordan Rapp) #8

Jim,

No workout has a 48hr blackout. In that case, you must have just done all the prior workout early enough in the week that it’s just waiting for the next to become available. If you’ve only got, for example, three workouts to do in a week, the structure of the plan might not allow you to do those workouts M/Tu/W and then take four days off. In terms of managing training load, three consecutive days of training followed by four days off is quite than spacing them out through the week. We wanted the system to be flexible but still actually provide some guidance with regards to proper training methodology and loading. 

Certainly I can appreciate that this is frustrating for those people who have said, “I want to be able to do whatever I want whenever I want,” but as I said above, that is not really a training *plan* then.

Definitely taking all this feedback into account as we work especially to improve the way the plan communicates with users.

Ride On,

Jordan

Zwift Game Design


(Jim Mattson) #9

Jordan,

I honestly don’t know why my next workout was locked until 5:44 am this morning. I had assumed it had something to do with when I did my previous workout, but you certainly know better than I. 

I’m not asking to be able to do “whatever I want, whenever I want.” I’m simply asking for the unlock to happen early enough in the day so that I can complete it by 7:00 am. 

Here’s an idea: why not simply unlock the day’s workout at midnight (assuming no inter-workout blackout)? 5:44 am seems like a strange time to start the day. 


(Jim Mattson) #10

Wow! I have a theory. “Start of day” for Zwift workout plans is both over-engineered and under-engineered. Rather than picking an easy convention like midnight, Zwift has chosen to have the day start at sunrise. But sunrise where? Not at the rider’s location. (Sunrise here was at 5:11 today). Perhaps sunrise at Zwift HQ? Siri tells me that the Los Angeles sunrise was at 5:41 this morning, which is pretty close to the 5:44 workout unlock that I experienced. If I’m right, I beg you to adopt a different convention…one that is easier to plan for. Midnight in the rider’s timezone seems ideal.


(Jordan Rapp) #11

Hi Jim,

The workouts should all become available (and unavailable) in exact 24hr increments. We had some bugs in the timing feature which all should have been corrected in this most recent update. 

I can promise you I’m not smart enough to arrange for workouts to become available at “sunrise.”

Best,

Jordan


(Jim Mattson) #12

24 hour increments from when? From when I signed up for the plan? I’m trying to understand why my workouts become available at 5:44 am, and I would really like to move the start of each 24 hour interval back to at least 5:00 am.
Having the interval start right around my common workout time is a real pain, since it means that I may have to wait an extra 24 hours sometimes.


(Jordan Rapp) #13

Hi Jim,

24hr increments from 00:00 on Monday your local time. If your workouts are becoming available at 5:44am, that’s a bug. When you sign up for the plan should be totally irrelevant. 

  1. did you download the latest patch (released yesterday)

  2. are you still seeing this - workouts become available at 5:44am - since downloading the update?


(Jim Mattson) #14
  1. Yes, I downloaded the patch yesterday before riding. I didn’t realize it was even possible to get past the launcher (PC version) without downloading the pending updates. 

  2. Yes. Yesterday’s workout was locked until 5:43 am or 5:44 am. I had been watching it count down the remaining few minutes to availability, but when it said, “available in 0 minutes” and it was still locked, I freaked out and restarted the app. My ride started at 5:44 am, according to Strava. 

I slept in this morning, so I don’t know exactly when the workout became available, but when I checked last night around 9:00 pm (using the iOS app, because Zwift Companion is completely wrong about training plan information), it said that the next workout would be available in 9 hours. 


(Jordan Rapp) #15

Jim,

Thanks. And, to clarify, this is unlock based on availability, not based on blackout from a prior workout. I’m 99% sure based on what you wrote above that’s the case. But just wanted to check.

You can also feel free to email me directly - jordan.rapp@zwift.com - if that’s easier than the back and forth here.

Best,

Jordan


(Daren Chandisingh [Vision]) #16

“The lockouts were explicitly designed with the assumption that most people workout at _about _the same time day-to-day”

To me, that’s a hugely invalid assumption.

I have an 8 month old, and while I don’t ride Zwift a lot at the moment, I do enough other things to know that the time I could do it can vary by many hours. Or some days it’ll be evening, then I need to do something in the morning the next day. Just to fit around life and work. 


(Jordan Rapp) #17

Daren,

To add some clarification to this statement, since the way in which people are reading this is definitely not how I intended it, but re-reading it, it’s clear that I could have done a better job.

Basically, what I was referring to was striking a balance between wanting to come up with a consistent and understandable spacing between workouts that - and this is what I left out initially - also matches up to established understanding about recovery and adaptation.

Basically, we needed to come up with something that functions algorithmically, but which also makes intuitive sense. The challenge here is if we say, “you need 24hrs between workouts…” that ends up being a problem if we interpret that as EXACTLY 24hrs. So there needs to be some “fudge” factor in there. So a “day” between workouts is not quite a day, to allow you to work out at - as I said initially - roughly the same time each day.

But there’s a huge difference between workouts that are spaced apart by - in your example - working out in the evening and then the next morning. That sort of truncated recovery is not adequate in terms of repeated loading. Now, there are workouts that do allow for that. Not every workout has a 24(ish) lockout. But the workouts that do require that do so because of the load they will place on the system.

Ultimately, the effort was to balance “flexibility” with some actual guidance about best practices with regards to training. If, ultimately, in certain cases, that prevents someone from doing a workout in close proximity to another workout, that was - to us - the more sensible decision as opposed to allowing people to stack workouts in such a way as to be ill-advised with regards to training load.

Best,

Jordan


(Daren Chandisingh [Vision]) #18

I get what you’re saying, and I understand your intention.

But I still think there should be a “OK, I get that I’m tired - let me do the workout anyway!” option. Even if you put it behind an “Are you sure?” confirmation. 

Most Zwifters are adults, and should be free to make such choices, even if they’re not strictly advisable.  People recover at different rates, and some people can definitely sustain a higher load than others.

I used to do hard ergo sessions on my C2 rower twice a day every day. It was a huge training load (according to my Suunto T6 at the time), but I was fine with it. (and crucially, got faster and avoided injury)


(Paul Twardowski) #19

Thanks for responding to all these comments Jordan.  I agree with Daren in that the time gaps between workouts should just be a suggestion.  Make the timers just a “Recommended rest time remaining:” countdown.  That way the user can adjust a needed.  To leave it restrictive is just going to keep frustrating people in various ways for no real reason.  You can’t prevent users from over training (i can always go ride more outside the training plan) so try to suggest/educate rather than force rest.

I am enjoying the training program (in Week 4 of Build Me Up), but want to help Zwift polish the product and make it ideal.

Thanks!


(Paul Avery) #20

I tried the grande fondo plan was good and didn’t mind the fact that workouts where locked after you had just completed one. However, I didn’t understand why work outs got relocked if you missed them.

For example the plan has along ride on the weekend. I missed week 2 which got relocked and then on week 3 the next long ride got unlocked but was harder than week 2. I should have been able to pick up the week 2 long ride.

I found it too restrictive and stopped using the plan. As others have said I would like to see the plan contain recommendations not locks.

i think it’s going to be too difficult to make an algorithm that works, there are to many external factors to say what rides should or should not be attempted. Most people will ride outside of zwift, probably more than in zwift anyway.

I used to use trainer Road where they had plans you could follow but nothing was locked. I would regularly choose different workouts based on how I felt. Never had any problem over training.

ps extra suggestion, search workouts by name please