Please Remove all Woman and Men only events

(Ramond) #1

Now that Zwift is in support of “Athlete Ally” It is time to remove all boundaries between men and Woman.

Not one single person is either 100% Male or 100% Female by the definition of the LGBQ community. If Zwift want to be all inclusive they need to remove all boundaries so users don’t have to identify with either group.

Zwift has said they take it serious if men enter woman events but that does not agree with the true spirit of Pride and “Athlete Ally”. If a man feel like he want to identify as a woman for a specific event or race then he/she/they should be allowed to do so.

If zwift remove all gender it will make it a better world. Just having a month in honor of Pride is just the east way out.

And while we are at it can we also please remove the w/kg, there are a lot of people that don’t want to be judged based on there weight and if you are naturally heavy you go slower due to the w/kg. We should all be given the same weight in Zwift.

(Cardoon) #2

Nice try, Raymond. I am assuming you are wanting to ‘bait’ people.

But what I really find cumbersome is the theory of limiting you have. How about taking expanding as your framework for thought? So instead of wanting to egalize the playing field by suggesting nobody should be having any markers like ‘male’ or ‘female’ which is the strategy of taking away, why don’t you ask for expanding? Ask for having all accepted, womens with trans, trans only, people in transition only races-I assume that the taking of hormones does weird things to one’s FTP!- men with trans, gay races, straight races, and whatever else is possible (smokers’ races!!) ON TOP of the women’s only and men’s only events that are there now. THEN you have egalized the field, everybody has an event to look forward to. You have expanded instead of shrunk.

I think that is a better way of looking at it.

I assume you post this in answer to the “Pride on, really?” Thread that was posted a day or so ago and is now -regretfully- closed. The fact that this thread went the way it went, shows clearly that this pride week thingie is still (regretfully!) needed. The discussion needs to rage on a while, people need to think about it still.

Do remember, sexuality is not gender
Gender is not sexuality. These are two different things.

People who want to identify differently either no longer want to be restricted in the two single categories that humans have used up until now, or want to be free to change from the one to the other without being radicalized, marginalized, harassed or killed for wishing to do so.

Note that this has to do with ‘identity’ not biology. (Hence the word “identify”) Sexuality is then another matter that comes on top of that.

Since sport has massively to do with biology, the stratifying in men and women in sport is borne from biology. The making of special events, for women, for non whites, for queers, for trans, for carpenters, for Dutch only (should we eradicate those too?) is based on identity. Different thing. All should be possible.

Remember: EXPAND instead of restrict. In other words: include.

In the pride on thread the position was discussed that people feel a business should not make such choices since they, the subscribers would have to then see such a thing. I roll my eyes at that point, but it is a valid point. But just like you are free to do as you wish, to subscribe, to not subscribe, to petition, or to avoid identity questions, it is Zwift’s freedom as a business, to decide to do a whichever kind of event they want to do, petitioned or not. That is their prerogative, the freedom they have to make choices just like you have your freedom to make choices.

PS: ■■■■ sapiens is a political beast. In order to avoid politics one needs to go live in a human-less place somewhere (yes, as soon as there are more then two humans in a space, there will be politics)

As a Dutch person (it is indeed part of my identity, though highly malleable) I can only add this as a last remark;

Joh, ga toch lekker fietsen!

(Cardoon) #3

As an European (oh! Look! Another part of my identity!) I find it funny that the latin denomination of modern human was blocked out. Oh well. I guess we’ll have to stick with just the “sapiens”

(.) #4

Hi Cardoon,
I like the start of your first post and I am certainly not one to supporting the first post to “remove all men and women events”, but I feel that your solution of “expanding” over “limiting” may, rather than making people feel more included, actually produce a feeling of separation or possibly lead to a splintering of cyclists. (Assuming that I have understood your idea of more specialist group rides/events)

I don’t have any great solutions but, we have all come to Zwift to keep fit, train, race or socialise etc, so lets all do it together.

Lets welcome all other cyclists and enjoy Zwift.

Ride On

(Nigel ) #5

Ramond - you should check out CVRcade then. Races are gender neutral and men, women and any other combinations in between to race as equals due to equalization. This allows people of different fitness levels to race against each other on a level playing field. This also allows people using miscalibrated trainers and virtual power trainers to race on a level playing field as well. The game generates a power curve for you as you go along and adjusts your power up and down so that everyone has a virtual FTP of 367 and a virtual maximum heart rate of 200.

(Cardoon) #6

Hi Troy! Thanks for responding. I think that, in essence, we are on the same page. Everybody can just join Zwift and ride.

It is not necessairy to pose one’s identity thoughts and political bias in ones’ profile, we are all just bikers here. Or twowheelers if you will. :slight_smile:

If I understand Zwift correctly, any one can propose to organise an event here, according to what one wants, and what I am trying to say in my post above is: Do not take the fact that people want to transcend gender identities based on biological coincidences, as a token to abolish, or limit those gender identities (that are based on biology) but as a token that there are more then those and that there are those amongst us twowheelers who want to have an event for them, be that a Dutchies go train event or a smokers panting their black lungs out event or a men’s only event. Or women’s only. Or whatever.

Zwift, as a company, can decide to make a pride on week. Or whatever. Those who do not agree, quit, or do not join, or make their own event.

I can see how making a gazillion subdivisions make it seem like there is borders everywhere. I do not see why these divisions should be interpreted as borders though. In essence, it is all riding events, be they relaxed riding together, hard training, or all out races. We all should be just riding. Unfortunately, the society we are in (and that Zwift is also part of) has issues. They are brought to the table, and we argue over them.

That is fine. I do hope that we will go riding again after the arguing. Because we are here to ride.

If you want to do that in event X, or rather event F, fine, if you’ rather ride on your own, fine too. Kudos for riding!
P/Ride on!

(Daren) #7

What? Surely “identifying as a woman” isn’t something people do on a race-by-race basis. This comment seems ridiculous to me.

Aside from matters of gender, which don’t apply in a virtual world in exactly the same way as the real world, there’s matter of biological ■■■. (ummm, rhymes with hex)

The women-only rides serve two quite different purposes as I see it.

One is to try and create a space where women won’t be subjected to the sort of sexist crap and unwanted attention that many men still dish out.

The other is to create races and events where participants can compete on a more level field. Whatever you think about gender (which I see more as a psychological and social state), there are fundamental biological differences in the sexes that mean there is a real difference in terms of performance. Of course, these groups overlap hugely and a fit, strong woman can and will outperform a less powerful man (or one with a lower VO2Max); that’s not the point.

No one is arguing that men and women should compete in the same track and field events at the Olympics. I don’t see why there shouldn’t be some segregated events on Zwift.

FWIW I don’t think there are any men-only events.

(larry) #8

a typical computer troll

(Darren) #9

is somebody upset about the pride rides?

(Rob) #10

The charity which The Zwift organisation is contributing over $200k to certainly believes in that. If I understand correctly, their aims are that if a man identifies as being a woman, she should be free to compete as a woman. This means he/she is competing against female athletes in female events. This potentially disadvantages genetically born females when country / world / Olympic records are broken. In future if gender is no longer a valid classification for grouping athletes, what is the alternative? I believe this is a valid discussion, but this is probably not the right forum.

I do agree that it is hypocritical for Zwift to contribute to a cause which they do not support in their application. There terms are a woman’s race is a woman’s race, are they intrinsically excluding the Pride community?

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(Amien) #11

If you were to continue your argument down its logical path, you would see that the proper categories continue till the level of individual differences, I.e. the individual is the only true minority and the only “inclusive” category is one that is all-inclusive.

Also, expansion/growth is not always a positive thing. Cancer for example, is just that.

Both your posts seem to come from a good place though, something I can appreciate. Ride On :slight_smile:

(Daren) #12

If so, then I’ve misunderstood them. I thought they were advocating for the inclusion of transsexual and transgender athletes into the relevant category and for policies that promote equality and inclusion across aspects of sport.

I agree with your position on the potential for unfair advantage I think, but ■■■ and gender do remain valid differentiators. The arguments are about equality of opportunity as much as anything else.

For example, a transsexual or transgender woman (born male) should be allowed to compete with other women under the right circumstances. Indeed, the IOC say this.

  1. Those who transition from female to male are eligible to compete in the
    male category without restriction.
  2. Those who transition from male to female are eligible to compete in the
    female category under the following conditions:

See IOC Consensus Meeting on ■■■ Reassignment and Hyperandrogenism November 2015 for the details, but the conditions relate to length of time being declared female, testosterone levels and compliance with testing protocols.

What I’m saying is there’s little to no pressure to combine all male and female sports. There are certainly some where men and women can compete equally. Darts, snooker, synchronised swimming, archery, horse riding, and I’m sure many, many more.

But the things are are more down to physicality, biomechanics or power are less likely candidates I think. 100m sprinting, high jumping, power lifting…

I’m of course no expert, but all I’m trying to illustrate is there will always be times where it makes sense to separate men and women - mostly down to testosterone, musculature and phsyical norms such as height as far as I can see.

I’m not sure I follow this either. There is no possible exclusion of anyone as far as I can see. If a person born male identifies as female, she can say she’s female on her Zwift profile. That’s all she has to do. No reassignment procedures, no hormonal therapy, no checks or tests.

Tick a box to say you’re female and that’s it. Job done.

Now you can join women-only events. There are no men-only events (that I’ve ever seen, anyway). So everything is available to you.

Yes, it could be deemed unfair if a male rider pretends to be female so he can blast the women-only race. That’s another aspect of the whole human tendency to cheat (along with fliers, sandbaggers, etc.)

But it certainly doesn’t exclude anyone from anything.

(Rob) #13

Hi Daren, Thank you for the balanced and interesting discussion. Your statement which I commented on could be interpreted in different ways. My interpretation of this phrase was maybe different to yours. The difficulty is how one makes those definitions. I was not aware of the IOC recommendations, thank you for that, it is interesting reading. Unfortunately this them seems to have caused the IAAF other problems which arbitrarily discriminate against females based on their medical condition. This and the IOC guidelines do mean that a female should be allowed to participate in a male category.

I agree with you that the gender one uses in this virtual world should be as simple as choosing which radio button to click on. The original poster implied that Zwift monitors misuse of this, but I have to admit I do not have any knowledge in this and have not searched through the forum for any posts which may justify this view. The Zwift Terms of Service seem fairly clear on the subject “you must provide accurate account information”. I guess it depends how they chose to apply that, if they need to.

(Amien) #14

Sarcasm aside, the OP as well as most others that have an issue with this campaign is the association with Athlete Ally, an organization that recently booted Martina Navratilova off their advisory board for making a well-reasoned argument against gender switching for competition. This is a sports legend that has done more for gay rights and women’s sport than most of us combined.

The IOC, IAAF, NCAA etc are all under immense pressure to revise and adjust their guidelines from groups such as Athlete Ally. Apart from Navratilova’s statement, I’d recommend looking up Cece Telfer as the most recent example of an NCAA recognized transgender athlete that’s won a women’s track national championship.

I won’t bore you with the details but simply adjusting for hormones doesn’t even come close to addressing the performance differences between men and women, particularly when the effort duration get shorter and more intense.

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