Pack Dynamics 5 discussion

Good summary.

I’m really disappointed in PD5. Not at all what I hoped for. It broke things that wasn’t all that broken to begin with (mostly because of forum whiners who don’t have steering?) but didn’t fix the things that were really bad with PD4.1.

I have stopped using the Zwift Play steering devices. I bought them partly to get buttons close to my thumb but also to counter the weird draft avoidance behavior in PD4, with the avatar taking some really stupid lines far too often, staying out of draft.

Then came PD5 and now you’re worse off with steering than without as you get constantly pushed to the side at the most inopportune moments.

Add sticky draft to that and you get pushed to the outside by some semi-slow rider to the left, but you need to dig relatively deep to get past him. Or, since packs often like to avoid the oncoming lane, you get pushed to the inside right and get locked in. Getting locked in is kind of cool… sort of… in a way… since it’s realistic. Only it’s just you having to swallow the realism pill while non-steerers are allowed to spit it out and continue to pass through others. They still lock you in though.

(Sidenote: A second reason why I stopped using Zwift Play is the horrible bluetooth hardware inside. It’s so hard to hook the devices up at startup and they often lose connection mid ride, e.g. right before you intend to fire off the powerup… My other BT devices don’t. And no, this is not because there are too many BT devices connected - I made sure my computer and BT interface could handle the number of connections I need and then some, and it’s only ever Zwift Play that drops out, never any other devices. Zwift Play is trash.)

What didn’t change with PD5, going from PD4, is the bad behavior when going in and out of draft, which I think is the worst part of it. Mainly it’s about these behaviors:

-Sticky draft when going uphill is one very old issue. One might think it shouldn’t be completely impossible to lower the stickiness proportionally to the incline. Or just turn it off when the incline is, say, 5%+, if that makes it easier…

-Going from PD3 to PD4 you got spat out the back in groups too easily. This behavior persists in PD5. What I’m talking about is that at PD4 launch people spoke at length about the need to not over exert yourself and instead try to minimize Watts when in a pack since stickiness would let you overdo your effort if you weren’t careful. But my experience was rather the opposite. It was suddenly very easy to get dropped if you were at the back. You had to secure an embedded spot close to the front to be safe and sometimes, at certain group sizes, it was hard to get into a good position because they were “taken” already. So you were left fighting at the back. Silly. And it’s still the same. It wasn’t like that in PD3.

-Draft still doesn’t blend well. A chasing group approaches from behind and slowly passes through yours, carrying some excess speed from the final chase. You want to melt into the new arrivals. But you’re stuck with your old draft at slower speed, so now you have to work like hell to get into their draft. It can get ridiculous sometimes. Real life physics doesn’t work that way. If you are surrounded by other riders close to you, then in that moment you are in draft, regardless of their speeds. You have to accelerate a little(!) to match the new speed, yes, but in Zwift it’s like the draft you were already in doesn’t help you at all. It’s like you have to break out of the sticky goo and follow the new guys for a bit to get into their draft.

-Someone made up a good name for the phenomenon but I can’t remember what it was, so I call it “waves”. The waves in groups still persist. It’s a consequence of your being able to ride through others. The front doesn’t want to or can’t pull hard enough, so people in draft who happen to push it a little at the back move forward, pass through the front, and now everybody has to catch up. And then it happens again. Rinse repeat. I don’t know if people in genereal are just bad at guaging speed and their effort, and I don’t know if it annoys the hell out of me only because I tend to race hard and don’t have the reserves to spare for these constant micro punches. But I don’t like the behavior. It’s so unrealistic. Unavoidable maybe, but I’m thinking there could be clever ways to at least mimick somewhat calmer group dynamics.

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Yesterday i was told they made changes to how hard is it to steer manually inside a group with the update 1.85.2 and other variables they didnt explained me.To me it felt really good (in fact it felt like best pack dynamics ever and i have been since beta)before but i am open to changes unlike some people here so i will have to test it before giving my opinion. @Jon

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Same here.
I stopped using the Play controllers once the KICKR SHIFT buttons were integrated into Zwift.

I don’t typically use the steering buttons on the SHIFT.
What I would really, really like to see is the ability to have the interaction buttons ( ride on bomb, power-up, etc ) enabled, but disable steering.

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Exactly What I’m going to do mark after 8 years on zwift pd5 still terrible they don’t listen to subscribers such a woke ai controlled company :joy: I’ve had enough of them

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i did a few rides over last couple of days and it feels like that some of the changes worked.
The draft is really narrow and short…if they could get riders that are overtaking to move to the outside it would fix most of the problems.

I tested with Zwift Play with steering and without…i have to say it’s much easier to stay in the middle of the group when i had NO STEERING. I was pushed out of the group way to easy when i had steering.

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To me it feels like bit of a comeback to PD4 from a collision perspective.I liked more previous 1.85.2 version felt better and looked better (less blob of riders riding throught each other).

Regarding the pushing to the outside it feels the same as before.I think that instead of modiying collision parameters to be softer,they should make riders that are overtaking to move around the riders that are being overtaken (without pushing them) like few have said here before and the problem would be solved.

You can measure %draft on Windows using the Pedalgames.com app

If there is a difference between free riding and racing dynamics then you’ll see it immediately.

I’m with Jacques group and now coco. The dynamics and sticky draft is horrible.

Entire ride so far jammed against the side of the road… I had steering disabled and was constantly shoved aside all the time and then even stuck out at the side.

17km so far. I ended up persisting with 32km then got fed up with it and quit.

And aside from that, it just seemed like riding with brakes on all the time having to do a large amount of power to get past other people who were just cruising along.

Please enforce this in racing so they can deal with it and bring back PD3 for normal rides.

The biggest difference is the crazy CdA boost with supertuck in races…they should remove that ASAP.

Free riding has new PD5 and new AUTOSTEERING and Races are on PD4.1 and NO AUTOSTEERING at the moment.

I would love to have it enabled to get a better understanding in race type situations what is going on.

This is nuts. The behaviour should be the same whatever the situation.

Racing should have the PD5 blocking and all other irritations.

Not necessary to have that in regular riding. The experience I had yesterday was not smooth at all - the moment I let off the power even slightly I was dragged back through the coco robopacer group and then had to fight to go back to the front.

So much for an easy ride when you have to constantly do 270-300w again and again. And yet the robopacer just zooms through the group unaffected. I did a Big Spin ride and the effort was much easier even with a higher pace.

I also see the Zwift representative of the pace dynamics has gone MIA.

Really? I caught and passed someone in Supertuck on the Box Hill descent yesterday during the ZG race. Or is that only happening in Watopia races?

It’s more of an issue on steeper descents.
Anything going down The Grade for example.
Fox Hill descent gives more of a supertuck advantage than Box Hill too.

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Well, that’s kinda stupid then. Being faster in Supertuck than someone putting down race level power doesn’t make much sense…

As Tom said the steeper the descent the bigger advantage for supertuck and you can’t stay in the draft even sprinting.
For example Innsbruck KOM descent the steeper part…Tower and Epic KOM Reverse.
This steep descents is just crazy you can see it in Elite races…descents are now Sprinting festival.

This shouldn’t be the case to get dropped when you are in the draft and doing 300W. :see_no_evil_monkey:

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I’m sure I remember calling for supertuck to be removed from Zwift years ago since it’s not allowed in real life races either.

But if I remember the response was Zwift isn’t real so here we are again debating the woes of the supertuck.

I have done that IRL and yes, don’t try that at home. :wink:

I was on a large group ride in the north Georgia mountains a few years ago, and every single little downhill, some dork would go into the super tuck.
People around him were all shaking their heads at the idiocy of it.

Idiocy I suppose depends on the abilities of those making the accusation versus the one doing the supertuck. Some riders make it look completely effortless and easy - some of the negativity could also be envy from those who aren’t able to do the same.

On group rides there are any number of folks who spend their efforts assessing negatively what others are doing, what cycling kit others are wearing, etc, while they are wobbling about not watching where they are going or being aware of who is behind them trying to overtake. :roll_eyes: Rant over…

It is a big benefit on large descents but you have to know the road and be used to it. I don’t bother anymore - my body can’t handle it these days.

We are getting away from the topic at hand I think.

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I was hanging out with Coco today and noticed some very positive changes. Noticed them yesterday too.

  • Less “jerkiness” in the pack with steering enabled
  • My rider always seemed to look for the center of the draft, grabbing it when a hole opened up
  • Riders approaching from behind went around my rider to pass
  • I wasn’t once pushed out of the draft, and only found myself out of the draft when a rider in front moved and I didn’t have a hole to move in to
  • When moving up in the pack, I went around riders. Didn’t always go to the outside, but always went around. In some cases, there’s a faster echelon in the middle of the pack and I could grab that.
  • Users with and without steering didn’t seem to behave any differently from one another.
  • Much smoother overall compared to about a week ago.

All in all, I would really like to see how things are working in races now.

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So what was different for you? I was in the Watopia Coco group yesterday for a while (Jacques group too) and it was bad.

For me I always got pushed out by passing riders yesterday. And the whole experience was not smooth at all - it was just a series of bursts of power to try and stay in position. I spent a lot of time stuck out on the centre line of the road as well - I don’t have steering so no way to fight against that.