But, the debate is some believe the effort is the same because the output in watts is the same.
I realize Zwift is trying to cater to everyone on the platform, regardless of the gears they currently have on their bike. Rather than change all the gear ratios, change the setting, I do get it.
Im specifically talking about the more serious performance users on Zwift, were people are not using their track bike on a dumb trainer. I talking about people who probably have their road bike hooked up to a smart trainer and are tweaking the settings to reduce shifting and to be able time trail climbs.
I can hold 300 watts much more efficiently on a flat road for 10/15 mins at 100rpm. Were as on a 12% climb I would be lucky to get to 60rpm as im 81kg. 5/10mins of this would burn me out as I would have to apply much more torque and be out of the saddle a fair bit.
Im not alone here with the opinion and am putting out there for those who want to consider it. It’s not all the same effort because the watts are the same. One method requires more effort.
So why don’t you change your bike gears so you don’t have to get out of the saddle. You already have a 32 at the back, reduce your front chainring, then you can spin at 100rpm up the climb. Just remember if you do that you will spin for a long time.
What about people that live in flat parts of the world some have 56/48 front and 11/21 at the back. Will they need to climb at 100%.
Even pro riders change there gearing for climbs an for flat TT.
This my point. So all watts are not equal, else it would not matter what they did.
You are getting hung up on the odd ratios and not everyone has the same gears thing. Refer to your first statement were you said does not make it any harder or easier.
Why would it matter using your theory. It does not matter if your grinding or spinning, as long as the watts are the same.
Anyway, I can see you either don’t see it or don’t agree, and clearly you use the trainer difficulty slider, that’s cool.
But at least the points have been made for others to decide.
I ride a 32 because I do in real life, I like to simulate how I really ride outdoors. When im racing, there is not much point in me riding around on zwift doing 100rpm up a 15% hill, with a 30/34 equivalent, only to do 50rpm in the real world.
Same going down hill, you would spin out a gravel bike set up pretty quick, but on a static trainer you can still put out hundreds of watts coming down.
In the real world you would be off the back and out of sight, as you would only be able to free wheel. So in zwift racing the setting should be same for all. At least if you want an official result. Im sure this will come to some races on Zwift Power.
But who cars what I do? It’s not about me, or you for that matter.
It feels like it affects gearing, but it’s not a gearing slider.
It changes the amount of gradient simulation. So at 100%, riding a 10% gradient feels like riding up a 10%.
If you put the slider at halfway, that same 10% in game feels like a 5% gradient - because the game and trainer are only trying to simulate 50% of the slope resistance. So you can ride up it at a higher cadence and it feels like you’re hitting a 10% in lower gears.
Put the slider all the way to zero and you essentially have a “dumb trainer” that won’t simulate any gradient changes.
Gerrie how have we got from you saying that trainer difficulty does not make it harder or easier and me disagreeing. To it being about me wanting to force Zwift uses to be at 100%?
You keep giving me conflicting examples in attempt to change my mind like.
I agree with all your statements here. However, your original comment that I did disagree with was…
It’s quite clear your other comments don’t match your original one. If it does not make any easier or harder why change it at all.
The point was made many posts ago, let just disagree and leave at that. Im not out to fight you on it. Just raising a point for others to consider, since this comment has been raised several times.
I think Zwift works like this.
As a rider with a smart trainer reaches an incline, Zwift signals to the trainer to increase resistance. This gives the rider an impression of the gradient and the
rider would decide to change to another gear to maintain the cadence they
prefer or to continue in the gear they have at a reduced cadence. The second
choice will at some point (if the incline continues to increase) mean the rider will have to get out of the saddle which will require more energy and so could be called harder. In the first scenario as the gradient increases the rider may chose to select another gear so as to maintain a more preferable cadence.
Will the watts of each rider be the same? who knows? I don’t. But the Zwifter will still have to move X kg up Y meters, which Zwift work out for us.
If Zwift removed the slider all it would mean is that some or many Zwifters would not have the same gear range that they currently have with the use of the slider.
So some or many Zwifters would have to (if they wanted to replicate what they had lost) go and buy another cassette or chainring. Nothing would have changed except that some or many Zwifters would have to spend even more money.
I think Zwift gave us a slider to enable more Zwifters to enjoy the platform, to make it accessible to everyone without incurring more cost.
I can see the point that a Zwifter who has the slider set to 0% will not have to change gear as they hit the Zwift climb to maintain their current output and this could be seen as one less problem to overcome. But if we are talking about “Zwift racing”, this is perhaps well towards the bottom of Zwifts racing problems.
Zwift will never be real, or 100% right for all of us, but I think they are the best thing since sliced bread and have made many a cyclists world, a far, far, better place.
Cheers Zwift and Thank You.
Sorry for the long post.
Please feel free to disagree with any or all of the above, as its only my thoughts.
“Ride On”
I know the topic trainer difficulty setting is being discussed very extensively. However, I would like to raise another point looking at this topic from a different angle.
If you set trainer difficulty to 100%, there is no hiding. It’s the real deal as you would get riding outside. However, if you change the difficulty to 10-20% (just to get a little bit of real feel) you will change HOW YOU personally experience the hill.
Here is the point. If you have the setting at 100% it could feel like interval training. If you have it 10-20% you will experience the hill more smoothly. Meaning your muscles will no spike (lactate) and you “might” survive the hill attack in a race and could carry on than throwing in the towel right there.
So, over an hour race with a few hills in it like Watopia figure 8, I believe you will race better (more consistent heart rate) than with a setting like 100% where you body has to deal with peak heart rates (changes) all the time over an hour race. I feel our body’s will react better and perform more consistent when you heart rate and power outputs don’t change that often.
I’ve ridden at 100% since starting on Zwift as a Floridian I don’t have climbs of any real consequence but I wanted to build muscular endurance.
Doing the Alpe or radio tower at 100% has made me much faster and stronger for outside rides, something I don’t think moving the slider would have given me at least not as quickly.
Last season I’ve zwifted on a dumb trainer, doing lot and lot of 200-220W sessions.
It got me endurance, but not much power.
In the spring I had to do hard training in the outside to get me where I wanted to be.
Now I’m on a smart trainer with TD at ~80% (otherwise my cadence gets too low hat 15% climbs) and I can feel that this gets me much more realistic power for the summer season.
Hi,
The power output needed to survive the hill attack will be exactly the same regardless of slider set at 10% or at 100%. Meaning your body will have to do the same amount of work anyhow.
For crying out loud! The slider is a virtual way of changing the cassette range. Some people are spinners and some are grafters. I think that you are all disagreeing saying the same thing…
A simple solution would be to limit the slider in races to 70-100%. Everyone can get decent gearing and has to shift and interval. Let’s face it, I race at 35% because it is fastest for me. I would rather be forced to 70-100 as long as it is a level playing field.
Around 30 is fastest, less shifting and able to keep the same cadence and output easier. But enough to feel some resistance on hills. I can even keep spinning 90rpm on a 12% incline which I could never do irl
It’s not, it’s a gradient adjustment. Whether you feel no gradient changes (“Off”) or the realistic gradient (“Max”) depends on the position.
At the default halfway position, a 10% gradient will be simulated as a 5% gradient. It feels like it’s adjusting gearing range but that’s because the game tells you you’re riding a 10% hill, but your smart trainer is putting you on a 5% one.
If you have a 12-28 cassette at Max, you still have the same range at halfway.
Of course, even at Max you will only get a 7% gradient simulation on a 10% hill if that’s all your trainer can simulate.
