Category Enforcement Test Events - 21-28 Feb 2022

FutureWorks
832

You are basing everything on the one category enforcement race where i assume you got dropped on the climb or straight out the gate but given that you didn’t push near your max ability I’d give it another chance.

I agree edge cases will find it hard that is no different right now with existing cats. I’d argue that edge cases right now are way worse with all the sandbaggers (both cruisers and those race out of cat) so even with this new system it’s improving it for more than its hurting by a large proportion.

Give it a try push hard at the start and see how it goes…heck let me know when you are next racing i’ll watch to see how it goes to be interested to see it first hand if it truly looks too hard

833

Look back at my stats and you’ll realize I was, and set 30 and 60 minute records.

The only thing I could’ve done harder, is kill myself at the start to keep up with them for maybe one whole lap.
At which point I would have been still dropped within said lap, and been too worn out to either complete the race, or 100% would have been lapped.

I do plan to do another one of these races for the record; but only something with a lot more altitude change (which, I still suffer, because apparently the heavyweights in Zwift don’t have to deal with as aerodynamics, just us lightweights do).
But it also means I have to carve out my schedule due to the weird timing (I realize this is a me thing, but because it’s either so late, or so early, whoever set the time for these really split up US time zones into a weird pot)

That said, my point remains.

As it stands, there’s nothing the system will do for me, my capabilities unchanged that is, to help me here.
It won’t see that I’m failing to keep up, it just says “this is the math, you belong in this very wide ranging zone”.

So even if I do 30 of these races, and am dropped in the first lap because I’m in a less popular time zone, the system… will NOT alter itself.

One or two things have to happen.

  1. I take a day off work to ride my indoor bike during a popular time zone.
  2. I hope and pray one day my body will be strong enough to maybe keep up with some people in B, and also be blessed with a larger than 30 person race.
834

Can’t help but to agree despite hoping it wouldn’t play out this way.

Especially because this is conflating two things and there’s a human tendency to align closer to one’s ‘side’ on all arguments — can already see here how it morphs the conversation to being around how the pens are split as opposed to whether the pen enforcement itself works, which is what this test was supposed to be about.

So I’ll just keep pointing out — you too, @gloscherrybomb — that these categories will never be as good as ranking + organizer pen options, and every word spent defending them or knocking them down could be better spent on making sure the goal stays clear.

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835

I don’t want to sound mean, but that is irrelevant if you got dropped at the start which I think you said you were. If you get dropped at the start unless you are a significantly stronger rider than the others you simply aren’t getting back on once the group is a couple of seconds up the road.

I do sympathize with you since I’ve been bottom of the barrel B for ages. In nearly every race I’ve done I get dropped from the start and have a solo ride. The best I managed was hanging with the group for 10 minutes before getting dropped and then riding solo.

I’ve done one of these test races and that was the figure 8 and there were around 50 Bs which is a bigger B field than I usually get. I did much better than I’ve ever done before, but because there were so many differences I don’t know what it was - pen enforcement, more riders, weaker riders being pushed up into B, stronger riders being pushed out of B, double draft, me having a better tactical race.

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836

You mean like this:

We’ve been sayin’ this for years. I imagine it’s quite a task codewise or else this would’ve been taken care a long time ago…

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837

Meanwhile, hours later I’m still trying to wrap my head around why the system claims me as a B.
I’m awful at math, but bear with me, I’m just trying to figure this out.

According to how the system works, I need to have a CP of 3.2w/kg and 200w
Unfortunately I literally just signed up for intervals.icu and I cannot find my CP listed anywhere.
However, the statement is that CP is generally lower than FTP.

Okay so going through my numbers.
My max 20 minute power, is 204w. Single event, first time over 200 this past weekend.
My weight is 60.87kg as of this morning. (set to 60.8 in zwift)
That puts me at a 20 minute best power of 3.35w/kg

So if my estimated FTP is 95% of that, that makes Zwift’s calculation of my FTP
3.1825 w/kg, which is, rounded up, 194w

That would be below 3.2w/kg, and below 200w.

Okay, so that can’t be it.
Alternatively, a MAP/VO2 of 4.1w/kg based on an average of my 5 and 8 minute power.
Looking in intervals’ Power All Time.
peak 5 minutes is 225w
peak 8 minutes is 216w

That’s an average of 220.5w

That would be, 3.62w/kg

Now correct me again if anyone sees me doing my math wrong, but that seems like a long ways below 4.1w/kg.

Huh, so that’s not it either I guess…

So yes, now I’m actually questioning how this math actually works.
And why I’m forced into Cat B, when upon my best detectivework, everything points… I am in fact… not a B.

838

I’m pretty new to intervals.icu, so someone more versed might have better details. If you go to the power tab on the left that will show the power curve, then you select “options” at the top once you’re in the power area, in the dropdown there’s a “power model used to estimate FTP” which itself is a dropdown, within this there are 2 CP options. Then you will see it will show you your CP details. There’s a chance you might need to set a season first, not sure.

Note: Don’t think we know the exact CP model that Zwift is using.

2 Likes
839

Ah, yep, that was it thanks. :+1:

The answer must be Monod & Scherrer’s 2 parameter CP.
Which for me is 201w (3.31w/kg)

As Morton’s 3 parameter CP is 197w (3.24w/kg)

Well, I guess that’s about as borderline as you can get! :joy:

My other points still remain however; but I appreciate finding the numbers.
Now I will just wait until the weekend until I can ride a race that has 100+ registrants to bump into someone at the bottom with me so I have someone to look at besides myself and the miles ticker.

I still firmly argue the points that the only way I see this succeeding is that it encourages more people to register, and I hope someone at Zwift hears me when I say that.

And first and foremost, that they make it absolutely CLEAR what your numbers are.
This can be looked over right now; as obviously it’s in a testing phase.

1 Like
840

That’s exactly that… I dared talk about it, got very nasty messages from some of the posters, even private messages when I asked him why he is agressive, and then i checked his activities : he is a D but didn’t try the new system. He spends days and days on this forum, flames people who don’t agree with him but don’t really ride, and in fact is just a troll.
People like him are just messing with us, they don’t give a … about the result, but as they shout harder they think they will be listened.

Only solution : fill the form, so Zwift headquarters will have some data to make their decision.

841

Crikey lads, give them a chance and relax a bit. I get that some of you are a bit miffed about which side of the line you’ve been placed.

But they’ve said repeatedly that these are test events where they have already demonstrated they will make changes where required for the next round of testing.

It’s the reality of the category system that there will always be folk at the top / bottom, and I get that it’s daunting to be placed at the bottom of a harder category rather than still at the top of an easier one. It’s a good thing though - there will be more like you there to race against and you will improve.

Relax!

7 Likes
842

Hi Andrew, there’s a point you’ve made here which I think is very true, but I think there’s a real risk many people on here will now be ignore what you say, because it looks like you haven’t even tried a test race on a different terrain to your first, or with warming up properly. So please, please, give it a proper second try.

Here’s the point I agree with:

I’ve agreed that for some time, I think there should be consistency in what the letters mean, so “B” or “C” always means the same, because there’s no doubt that some people confuse them in events like the TdZ.

But for racing, we’ve got to have enforcement of some kind of rules. And I know that if I improve just a little bit, I’ll be on the wrong side of an arbitrary line. And I’m ok with that.

2 Likes
843

No, that’s not my role. I can chose to take whatever angle I wish, and whilst I am a huge advocate for implementing a ranking system, and have continuously (and will continue to) banged the drum for allowing the organiser to define how pens are split, I recognise that this is a huge first step with many benefits. Is it exactly how I would have designed it? No, but I’m also not so narcissistic as to think that if they have they taken a different approach they’re wrong. They have also engaged post - the initial implementation to explain how it works, have allowed me to put it in terms for the wider userbase to understand, and, most importantly, have already made changes based on feedback. This is a really positive step-change.

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844

There are literally hundreds if not thousands of posts on here agreeing with this. :rofl:

wtf is going on

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845

Man babies.

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846

I think this sums up your perspective nicely (finally). You would like to reverse a clear improvement, because it is not the long-term utopian solution.

Brilliant.

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847

Great. Highly likely above the threshold considering Zwift consider so much more data. Is that it done now? (pleeeasssee)

1 Like
848

12 year-olds have more sense and don’t message privately to harass those who call out their petulant behaviour.

Let them quit, we’re much better off without them

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849

Pen enforcement in place :heavy_check_mark:
Reduced cruisers ability to game the system :heavy_check_mark:

Compared to 2 weeks ago… That’s a fairly significant step forward.

Now, how to explain to people they dont have a right to be at the front of the race…

9 Likes
850

Just quoting the OP of the original 3000 post thread…

3 Likes
851

Sorry, someone was sending abuse to you over this?