Autocategorization Test Events & FAQ

No, there is nothing that will be done, just race in the C cat from now on, it is all on the honor system.

2 Likes

Just indicates minimum/maximum values.

2 Likes

@Martin_WTRL Will it take the length of the race into consideration? The HR zone will be different for a crit and a fondo.

It already does.

The way many here criticize and poke holes ‘to make sure we are doing it “right”’/‘ticking all your boxes’ suggests you feel we are amateurs.

Having been the designer of many clinical and performance related trials involving many hundreds/thousands of patients/athletes, then combined with a whole array of expertise at Zwift, we assure you that this is not a half arsed, thoughtless test. We work to a very diligent protocol to ensure significance and accuracy. The fact that this is not shared with everyman and his dog is pretty normal. Testing is generally blind to those participating (or at best VERY limited in information) in order to get unengineered, unbiased results and honest opinions.

What we would very much appreciate that you join the races (some here are firing off opinions but have yet to take part) and feedback on how each race felt. Some will obviously feel good and some will feel bad and we want to know why. Discussing the validation of results based ranking etc is not what we are testing at this stage. Also discussing what we might be/could be/ought to be/assuming we are testing provokes a lot of noise that is not helpful (hence the deafening silence).

As reminder to what we are currently looking at - the best way to divisonalize/categorize riders to give an effective foundation structure for riders to progress through without vast ability gaps, lengthy periods ‘stuck’ in one place, coping with racers who demand, demand, demand all the time but disappear for 6 months of the year.

Once we have that - the points system is very easy and riders can be promoted and relegated between something and something else.

17 Likes

Exactly so.

Good to hear. My only spot of feedback would be that I finished DFL on ZP in the first classics race, which was C4 (bad coupla days before the event left me pretty empty). Even with that, I was able to hang onto the front group for 8 minutes or so and then I just motored in because I didn’t have anything left.

Then the next race I ended up in C3! Nearly same lack of preparation due to IRL commitments and I couldn’t make the first, second or third selection. It felt like a regular Zwift race with a bunch of A’s and B’s in a C race. Even so, I managed to hang for 5 minutes or so then I was spat out the back. Ended up riding in with a coupla other guys who were in the same boat as me.

Hopefully the next race goes better for me. I should be able to show up rested and ready to go. If I end up in C2 though…

Talking for myself, I certainly don’t think you are amateurs. I am just curious and want to know how things work. It is in my nature. I understand that you have worked on this for a long time. When we speculate, we just write what comes to our mind at the moment. Don’t take it personally :wink:

EDIT: Some things that are obvious to you do not have to be obvious to us. We have very few details.
I know you don’t want us to focus on the implementation, but this is an open thread and such discussion belongs here. Feedback on the races should be given in one place - in the survey.

Thanks Mark. As we have 6 classes to play with there will be occasions where we are looking at something specific and that may mean a mismatched class or 2 and potentially in certain regions to keep the focused ones in line with the control etc.
With almost 0 climbing this week, most will find themselves back where they started in terms of classes.

The survey mentioned at the very top of this thread was meant for the 2 test events only and not the actual Zwift Classics series. We are receiving some great feedback through various channels but sadly this public forum thread is not proving very useful.
I am sure the last thing you really want is for the busy working group on this project to switch off from this thread due to irrelevant information, tired of negativity etc and that is not going to help anyone.

3 Likes

James, you are certainly very sure that you have the answer… but flooding any and all threads on categorization with that answer doesn’t help anyone - and is frankly demoralizing.

Personally I don’t know if the work WTRL is doing here will pan out, but i appreciate the effort, and that they are spending this series tweaking the model to see. I also appreciate that WTRL have shown significant successes in creating a model for operating clean and popular races that Zwift or the community have never achieved. In my book that has earned them the right to have a go at it.

1 Like

Perhaps its time to EOL this thread and start a new one.

Certainly I would love to have a thread clean enough that I could get a feel for what the weekly tweaking looks like and any interesting data you are finding.

3 Likes

Personally I don’t think it’s been overly negative, most of the discussion has been fairly balanced with arguments made from several sides. I’ve been involved in a few spats because I don’t agree with some of the things that have been said, but I respect the points being raised and talk of locking the thread seems a bit sensitive to me.

Like it or not, all this is being operated and arranged by WTRL but on behalf of Zwift. This was made extremely clear by the posts from Zwift employees who started the thread and keep popping in to say they’re watching the discussion etc, as though this is their experiment. So I consider the cynicism and barbed comments are aimed at Zwift as a whole, not necessarily individuals at WTRL. I can understand why you’d take it personally but I don’t believe it’s intended that way in general.

5 Likes

Ya know what? I’m done with WTRL events. No great loss, I’m sure, but I’ve had it.

Time and time again this same condescension.

4 Likes

So, I have been made a C2 for Crit City, and am stoked to try that out instead of C1.
Under the normal system I am A+ with a 5.2 20min @370W and a member of the Kestrels who do OK in TTTs. I couldn’t pull the skin off a rice pudding with my sprint, BUT I have performed well in crit city races I have done in the past.

So, I am going to rip myself a new one and try to provide the best data for WTRL to use so that I dont end up in C2 again lol

Thanks WTRL for doing this testing, love ya work :+1:

2 Likes

If it’s for that then maybe it can work. But it is just more piece of equipment that can cast doubt.

I know you have a lot of data and by analyzing it you can learn a lot.

Also not all the comments on here are negative, we are passionate about racing just like you.

I only do WTRL races because they are fun and competitive.

2 Likes

So far my categorization has been very consistent. I have been placed in C4 in all 3 races. I finished 17 and 18 in the first two races, above average. Given that I am an “almost B rider” according to ZP categories, this makes a lot of sense. Nearly all the riders who beat me in the first two races are low B riders, with more wkg that mine. I believe I have a much better chance in crit city to stay with the front pack to the finish. Let’s see how it plays out.

This is confusing. @xflintx just recently mentioned a survey we should use. If you prefer to crawl various channels instead, I will certainly not post my feedback here or in the survey,

Keep the conversation going. There is a lot of value in openly discussing all of these points, even if it is just to show Zwift how passionate the race community are in seeing progress in this area.

I get it can be frustrating for Martin and there are a few snarky comments assuming things without any context, but let’s be honest - the discussions on this forum are likely to have had a significant influence on the fact that anything is being done at all, and it feels like Zwift themselves have realised this and the dialogue has been greater than it ever has.

@Martin_WTRL, thank you for all of your work and without it we would not even be having these discussions - but there are some great ideas here and for the most part a shared vision on a long term racing setup. Feel free to filter out the crap but the rest is very valuable and will always add something new / a different perspective that should ultimately lead to a better final product.

2 Likes

Yup, saw that already. Was just raising again since @xflintx specifically asked for feedback on women’s races👍

1 Like

It might help if people read, understood, and acted on what I said. It’s also demoralising to see them pursue such an obviously inadequate approach. But while I appreciate all that you do for the zwifting community (always enjoy your race recons) I’d really prefer it if you focussed on discussing the issues rather than trying to police my contributions.

1 Like