Yes, the effort is higher as the heavier rider requires more Watts. If the cornerstone of your argument is that fitness now plays a role because the heavier rider requires EVEN more Watts (the element that requires a heavier ride to equal a lighter rider uphill) then, you are asking for heavier riders to be disadvantaged in the system to suit you.
It’s amazing that over a whole year, you still fail to understand that concept.
Nope again, you want the algorithm to be changed to suit your physiology. That’s all. You don’t seek fair racing, you want your experience to be easier. Its very clear, just a shame that you cannot admit that to yourself.
I’m just commenting here as each time I’ve seen you post you keep making factually incorrect claims while abusing others for suggesting you’re wrong. Each perfectly fair argument made against you results in endless paragraphs of repetitive drivel that embeds you deeper and deeper in your entrenched view that zwift should adapt to just benefit you and help you win.
Here’s a short version of why w/kg to define cats below A is a non-starter:
On the flats, power reigns supreme. Yes, taller/heavier riders get an aero hit but it’s a minimal effect compared to the difference between what a 3.5w/kg B cat rider puts down in absolute power numbers when there’s a 20kg difference in rider weight: 80 watts! And in Zwift drafting is about 50% of real life so sucking wheels isn’t as effective in game.
On the climbs, speed all comes down to w/kg. Just because I weigh 66kg and my buddy weighs 89kg I’m NOT going to climb faster than him if we’re both laboring up The Alpe at 3.5w/kg. We’re going to go the exact same speed. He MIGHT even be a little faster because the bike weight is a smaller percentage of his overall mass than it is for me.
Sprinting is entirely power and the big boys typically have much higher wattage numbers in short bursts than us midgets. Of course my sprint has always been crap so I don’t even think of it as a weapon.
w/kg includes cardio strength because the metric used to cat riders is 20 minute power. So saying the big boys are at a disadvantage because they have to breath harder or their heart has to work harder is an absolute red herring. We’re all breathing hard and pumping lotsa blood.
When I finished Epic on Monday for my Long Baseline ride, I was completely blown. I managed to raise my 20 minute power to 3.6w/kg and the guys I was riding with did nearly the same time on the hill, 22-23 minutes, whether they weighed 63kg or 89kg because we were all putting down roughly the same w/kg. In real life, 22kg is a real difference maker on a 20 minute climb. In Zwift, weight doesn’t matter; it’s all down to how much power you can generate divided by your weight.
And that’s why using riders w/kg is a less than optimal metric for establishing categories.
Of course they do but heavier riders typically have more absolute strength than lighter riders.
Years ago, I raced cross country MtBikes quite a bit. The classes were broken down by age and race results (as you gained finishing points you got upgraded). They also had a class for guys who weighed 220 pounds or more and was populated with fairly young fit dudes. They started 2 minutes behind my age group: 40-45yo. I weighed about what I weighed now: 66kg and could climb pretty well as well as finish top three. The fast Clydesdales (that what they were called) would pass me about 10-20 minutes in and usually on the big climb. These guys were huge but could put down serious power. I would imagine they were capable of 4-500 watts for 20 minutes. The top three Clydesdales would finish in the middle of the 30-35 class.
It is the above part that @Tim_White doesn’t yet understand. If we return to the cat C example riders, one light, one heavy, and assume neither of them is a cruiser but that both are top contenders, then that means that both can barely keep a 3.2 W/kg up AdZ.
If they can barely do that, then by necessity they will both be on the threshold for the duration. They will both ride in Zone 4. Their HR diagrams will look very similar on average. They will both perceive the effort as very hard. Both their hearts will work very hard. And, like you explained too, they both go at the same speed. Maybe the heavy will take it down in the final little sprint, maybe not, who knows? But in the climb itself they are EQUALIZED. Thus the heavy rider is not disadvantaged in the climb, not in any way.
We have two competitions to settle here, two halves in the game, one in the climb, one on the flats.
That has to do with muscle not mass. It is not the weight that makes them stronger it is the amount of muscle. Just adding weight won’t make you stronger.
Looking at the TdF you will see it is the light riders that goes over the big climbs fast.
No. You raise an important point here. What is the remedy we are suggesting? To penalize heavier riders so that it becomes “equal” and “fair”. No, that would be very very bad. The solution is to destroy the W/kg categories and move to results-based categories instead, one where your past successes determine your categorization.
So if a heavy guy wins a lot (we don’t even have to know why), then he will get auto-promoted to the next category and cannot keep on winning and winning in the same cat for years. And if a light guy wins a lot (we still don’t have to explain why, we don’t even care), then he will get auto-promoted too. THAT is a fair system.
Let’s have a go then, I’m 82kg and close to the top of B cat (but not an outstanding one) I go up the AdZ climb in 46:55 according to strava. Find the 65kg guy who does that. I wasn’t even drafting anyone.
Only on very long climbs is that the case where heavier riders generally can’t keep the same high w/kg as a lighter rider. Very few of which exist on zwift except maybe alp and ventoux.
Otherwise the heavier rider is at an advantage in nearly all zwift races due to the cat limits with a lighter rider having to push higher w/kg to keep up.
The exception being the really light riders who come under the watt floors for the next cat who in extreme cases have a huge advantage as I believe the watt floors are set too high.
We are talking Zwift races under the W/kg system, not Strava KOM lists. If Zwift physics is anything like reality then that’s what you would expect. But although those records were probably not from races at all, all those 50 riders are or would be racing in cat A where there is no performance ceiling that gets them DQ’d. The heavy weight advantage does not exist in cat A (which I have also shown proof of). It only exists when you put an artificial limit to people in a race. A sport where you are not always allowed to do your best? That’s not a sport.
He’s much lighter than 65kg, hence able to go well over 4.2W/kg! Do keep up. Also, he did 4.7W/kg (279W) for 45 mins and that is not a B cat performance, not close.
The point is that once you are at or over 65kg, and hence over the 250W limit, heavy people have no disadvantage even up hills, in B cat (and similarly in D and C, but the numbers change). FWIW I’m sure there are some 65kg people who might have gone marginally quicker, eg in a big group. But it’s amazing that at 4.7w/kg he was only 3 mins faster than me (and I see I did 4.1 with no group). Suggests that at 4.3 (still a DQ on 20 min power) he’d have been slower.
I don’t agree that on climbs heavy guys has an advantage not even with the w/kg system. The whole point of W/kg is to equalize climbing effort. I am a heavy guy and get out climbed by people with lower ranking all the time. Same as IRL. I also kick but on the flats just like IRL.
What I do agree with is over a average Zwift race using the w/kg system the heavier more muscular rider does have an advantage because he can use more raw power on the flats than the lighter guy without triggering the limits.
I think what we all say is we need a ranking system!
Exactly. I’m a 66kg low/mid B at 3.6w/kg and my best up The Alpe is about 56 minutes. The only way I’m pulling a 47 minute time up that hill is if I “lose” 5kg or so. My absolute 20 minute power of 238 watts is not going to magically improve and at my age is likely to go down. To go faster on climbs in Zwift I need better power to weight, in other words, better w/kg.
That’s why I said “typically”. Getting fatter isn’t going to make you stronger but being a bigger AND stronger rider is an advantage in the lower categories of Zwift. In A it doesn’t matter as much because the lighter riders typically have higher power to weight ratios thus higher w/kg.
Gerrie, what’s your best time up The Alpe? Epic reverse? Volcano KOM? You out weigh me by over 20kg but your w/kg is about .3 higher. I imagine you’re faster up all those than I am.
Last time I checked the TdF was in real life. IRL, and in the highest echelons of endurance sport lighter athletes generate enough power to overcome the absolute strength of heavier competitors. Also, see above comment about A cat riders in Zwift.
